Social security and health insurance.
 

So just recently on the news I saw something about insurance in America.
I always knew that some people in America are simply too poor to pay for it and because of it simply live without any insurance. The Dutch reporter was at some place in Virginia where alot of tents were sent up and volunteer doctors, etc gave away free health care.
Thousands of people were litteraly in line coming from all different places waiting even early in the morning to receive health care.
The demand for help in America was apparently so high, that even some international projects were stopped.(if I didn't misunderstand)
Also the problem with health care seemed to affect alot of Americans, because I think I heard about 40 million+ people have this problem.

1 guy even had such an awfull dental problem(couldn't pay for a dentist), that his teeth had to be pulled out and received a denture free of charge.
And it was said that a denture normally costs 2500 dollars.

As the Dutch reporter mentioned, it was rather suprising to see a rich country(although imho at the moment actually really poor with all the expenses,etc) such as America with this kind of problem. A problem as he said, you'd normally see in Third World countries.

So I was wondering what do you guys, think about this?
And also I hope you guys are adequately insured.
I did hear good news though that Obama is working on some new kind of system, but like with everything such plans usually take a long time before they even are in effect.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Not sure where they went in Virginia, but I'm guessing Appalachia, where America's so-called "hillbillies" live.

Here is the thing you need to know about the US system. No one is denied emergency medical care. Most people only need catastrophic health insurance, to cover them from financial devistation. (Cancer, MS, etc.)

$2,500 is not financially devistating. It is just damn inconvienent. But it is not like his teeth just fell apart over night. He most likely failed to brush after every meal and/or floss, did not go for dental cleanings which are cheaper, and could be worked into a budget.

I would not put much stock in the Obama health care plan. The government can't even run a car rebate policy without screwing it up.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

$2,500 is a lot of money if you're spending on bills and food when you only have a minimum wage job and people to take care of.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Thank you for putting it more politely than I would have.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Things like that make me glad that I live in a civiliced european country with a strong, tight social network...

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

The number of uninsured keeps rising... the people who balk at a 'socialized' medical system hardly realize how much uninsured people cost the economy.

To be sure, the whole healthcare system in this country needs to be thoroughly reevaluated and reorganized. We're in the bottom third when it comes to healthcare efficiency.

It's fucking pathetic that the richest nation on Earth can't afford to at the VERY VERY least let everyone go for free once a year for a checkup.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Who the hell does that?

Anyway, thankee much, NHS. You may be crap, but at least I can use you.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Nihtgenga I see the errors of my ways now, what was I thinking, assuming someone would try to take care of their teeth by following the instructions on a tube of tooth paste. Even if they droped 1 brushing a day.


As of 24 July 2009, the federal minimum wage in the United States is $7.25 per hour up from $6.55 per hour (July 2008) up from $5.15 an hour in 2005.

If you have minimum wage skills then you work two minimum wage jobs to make ends meet.
(and if you have a minimum wage job what the hell are you doing having "people to take care of".)


at the time Wal-Mart's average starting wage is already nearly double the national minimum of $5.15 an hour. So let's call it $10.00 average starting wage.


maybe Eviscerator can tell us what the starting minion rate is and weither they provide heatlh insurance.

Fun fact: Wal-Mart employs about 1.3 million people, about 1% of the American work force.

Want a McJob the starting rate is above minimum wage.

McDonald's advertises that its CEO, Jim Skinner, began working at the company as a regular restaurant employee, and that 20 of its top 50 managers began work as regular crew members over 1,000 of the men and women who now own McDonald's franchises began behind the counter.

people on the bottom of the rung are generally there because they choose to be.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Just brushed my teeth a moment ago, as I'm about to go to bed. The only instructions on my toothpaste (Colgate, a major brand) were to give children a pea sized amount for supervised brushing. Didn't say anything about brushing after every meal.

Brushing before bed makes sense to me, as does brushing in the morning (Which I admit I don't do as I'm lazy.) After every meal though? What's the point? And seeing as most people have jobs, unless they bring their brush to work, how are they going to brush after lunch?

Another thing- I read something a while back (Can't remember where, but I think it may have been New Scientist) that said brushing your teeth after a meal might actually do more harm than good, as the acids (I think it was acids anyway) in the food weaken the enamel up to an hour after eating. Brushing then damages it.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Health insurance as it stands is doomed to fail because it's set up to jack prices up with no end in sight. Sooner or later, it WILL become too high for anyone to afford and collapse. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but it can't last.

The best way to understand it is to apply the logic used to something else. What if we ran our food that way? What if you had groccery insurance rather than simply paying for it directly yourself? Sound convenient? Think again

If that was the case, you wouldn't care what your grocceries cost because you're not directly paying for it. Why buy cod when you can buy halibut? Why shop around? Why use coupons? Why look for sales? Heck, go nuts! Take whatever you want. Your insurance company is paying for it.

Are you starting to see how this could very rapidly get expensive? That's why healthcare has gotten so expensive. It's not because the medicine companies are meanies. It's because the system is set up to drive up the prices and there's no competition to drive them back down. People think it's terrible to charge people money for medical treatment but that's a fact of life. Doctors and pharmacists DO need to eat and pay for their education. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Free isn't free. Get that idea out of your heads now.

Now, people like to hype us Canadians up as having the solution but I will tell you right now, Micheal Moore is full of it. First of all, our healthcare is NOT free. We pay for it in taxes. In essence, it's not that different from yours. People who don't get sick pay for people who do, same thing. Just like the US's system too, it's monopoly run so the cost goes up and the quality goes down because there's no competition to keep it motivated. Worse yet, government run healthcare means rationing. I'm sure you've all heard the horror stories of people having to wait 6 months to see a specialist. Many go to the US for treatment because under our system, they're going to die before they can get help. I wanted to see my doctor when I had the flu last year. It took two weeks to get to see him and by then, it was cleared up anyway, defeating the whole point.

So in Canada, cost still goes up, quality still goes down and there's less and less to go around. No folks, ours is NOT the solution either.

I get slammed for suggesting we snip out the beaucratic dead weight in healthcare and let it run itself but to those who object to that view, ask yourself this. Why don't we run the food industry the same way? It's an essential service too isn't it? What about clothing? What about housing? Heck, if it works so well, why not do it to everything?

Who do you want deciding who lives and who dies? Insurance companies? The government? Or should it be you and me? Think about it


A video on social security
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATsbbIJD3ew
In short, Social security is a Ponzi Scheme, nothing more. Worse yet, they've made promises they won't be able to make good on in the near future and our generation is the one that's going to be short changed.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Obviously it isn't free, Hawkeye.

And are you serious? There's tons of waiting times here in the US, too, even for those with insurance.

Basic preventative care would save billions of dollars.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Yes, that's 1 of the reasons why I wanted to know how you guys feel about it.
Because even a little accident could be financially crippeling for people with families, especially big ones.

I know what you mean(living in Netherlands myself), but then I always feel you can't really compare a small country such as that of mine with America. ;p
However I'm glad that by law it's arranged in such a way that a portion of each person's income gets deducted towards social security. So that those that don't have jobs or are unable to work, etc, can still afford their basic needs.( rent, food, etc)
In a way, we all work and care for each other, I suppose. Too bad that there are also slackers and deadbeats taking advantage of it.

Although in the coming decades we're probably going to be screwed in the Netherlands, since alot of people are becoming old, leaving us young people having to care for them.

That's why I was also rather suprised when I saw that news report.
However I think every country has their fair share of waiting lines in the healthcare.
I know that it's 1 of the things people usually bitch about besides the declining education of the kids of today.

About the brushing thing. It's important to use an electric one, which makes the cleaning of your teeth much easier. But regardless you're still supposed to brush your teeth a couple of mins and I think brushing during 2 times is most efficient.
After breakfast, before heading of to work,school,etc.
Before you go to bed and maybe also use mouthwash.

Thankfully, I myself typically only have to go to the dentist to get rid of the tartar,(I think that's the word). But the last time when my dentist cleaned away all the tartar, my gums were bleeding a bit. So he mentioned to take care of my gums as well, when brushing my teeth.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

You are clearly not speaking from expierence. If you are able to do what you purpose above, return with evidence I shall take back the comment of expierence and bow to you as my superior.

Marriage is hard, and then family is hard, work is hard, working 2 jobs is even harder and more over leaves without time to ones self. The poor deserve life sir, and I don't think you truly grasp the situation or what you purpose. If I was to be close minded and make wild assumptions I've say you are a single and have no children and are still dependant on someone. But that is an extremely wild assumption but I felt it was worth a mention regardless.

I bless England for giving me free health care, except my perscriptions, and the NHS is somewhat lowly compared to many other paid healthcares out there. But they keep me alive and keep my friends alive aswell. I think ultimately thats what matter.

I'd rather pay nothing and stomach a sour nurse and terrible food while I sit on the ward bed.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

a toothbrush and toothpaste isn't expensive

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Our insurance system has its flaws, which must be addressed, but the price is driven up by corrupt beurocracy (medicare and VA services are perfect examples). However, you do not throw out an entire system for something proven to be much worse. Nobody in the US is denied essential services, which cannot be said in countries that utilize socialied healthcare. On average, a person living in such a country will pay 10% to 20% more through taxes than any American will pay for even out of pocket healthcare expenses in the most extreme circumstance. Touting socialized healthcare systems in countries such as England and Canada is beyond laughable - they are the WORST systems in the world, and England is half the size of New Mexico and has a population of only 15% of that of the United States.

The statistics are unbiased and most definately NOT on the side of socialized healthcare.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

First of all I'm not anyone's superior.

Second, what did I propose above? Getting a job at Wal-mart?, McDonalds? just getting a second minimum wage job? Or supporting a family on minimum wage. Minimum wage is not designed to support a family.

The poor have life, and in that life should they choose to get married, wonderful. But why is only one working? and why can that person only get a minimum wage job? Many think that such a job is beneath them, well pride goes before the fall I suppose. The argument here to make illegal aliens legal is because they do the work Americans won't do. That means there is not a shortage of jobs just people who won't do them.

Then despite two people living off a single minimum wage job, with no medical insurance, they decide to have a family.

Of course marriage is hard. It is also not to be entered into lightly. Having children is an even bigger commitment.

I hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

all men are created equal -- they just don't end up that way.
pursuit of Happiness.-- Happiness is something that needs to be pursued. Not handed to you or a default position. You have to work at happiness.

I am currently single. Although I lived with a woman for three years who had four children,

Being single isn't all that easy either. My rent doesn't change based on the number of people in my apartment. My cable bill does not care weither one, five, or ten people are watching television. My electric bill does not change based on the number of occupants in the lit room.

Well, I got her pregnant, However the pregnancy ended in a miscarrage. Shortly before she was diagnosed with breast cancer.

I am dependant on no one. (unless you consider going to work dependant) so I'll say I'm self-sufficient.

I have worked since I was 15 1/2 when I could have a work permit and it was legal to do so, although I had worked winters shoveling driveways, and had a paper route before that.

I had a summer job as maintenance staff. which paid $5.00 when the minimum wage was $3.35(minor odd jobs trash, painting, raking, sweeping)I used the money I earned in the summer job to buy a $500 car --a 75 Chevy Malibu.

When school re-started, I got a job at Wendy's (Which was minimum wage).
I got a $.10 merrit raise which was not given to a co-worker and classmate who started the same day I did. Thus it was earned, not automatic. This raise was eliminated by the way when they increased the minimum wage in 1988 to $3.65.

I quit Wendy's when an associate manager, who had recently been promoted from crew. took a scoop of ice and dumped it down my shirt back as a joke five minutes before the end of my shift. (I did not much care for the guy when he was crew and now that he was associated manager he had a swelled head). When my shift was over I told him I quit, I drove home laundered my uniform, folded it, drove back presented it to him, in front of most of the crew that had seen him put the ice down my back.

The next day I was called by the store manager, he asked if he gave me a raise would I come back to work there, since I was a valuable employee. I told him that it was not a money issue and that I did not care to work under that manager. When I picked up my final check, I noticed the guy was in a crew uniform again.

Two weeks after I quit I had another job, which paid $7.00 per hour. Three months into that job, I moved out of the house ( I was 18) and into an appartment with a twenty something woman as a roommate(friend of a co-worker). Co-signed the lease 6 months into the lease she decides to move back in with her parents. Sticking me with the full rent for the remainder of the lease.

Three years after that I left that job and went to work for a competitor. As it was clear that I was being held back because of my education.

Oh, I forgot to mention that my alcoholic father and mother decided to tell me on my graduation day that they were getting a divorce and that my college money was going to pay laywers. Anyway...

After a year and a half I went from making $12.50 per hour to making 15.00 per hour and had recieved a promotion to a semi management position. Then the first Bush recession hit and the company I worked had it's main contract pulled. One month after that they were out of business.

So I was unemployeed for six months, why six months, I could say it was the economy stupid, but the truth was I was still being paid not to work. I just had to go on three interviews per week. I had done what I did for almost five years, and thought it might be worthwhile to look in another field. So I sent out job applications for various jobs.

One was for a flight attendant for Northwest Airlines. This is where I was a victim of sexual descrimination. The ad said I had to be less than 5'9" in shoes which I am. Now you need to know that my middle name is "Alison" which was my grandfather's name, and he didn't like it all that much either. So as part of unemployment, I sent a resume with my proper name. No response for two weeks but I saw the add again realized that "in shoes" meant "in heels" so without saying it they were looking for a stewardess. So I submitted the exact same resume except I change my first name to my first initial and included my middle name.

The next day, I got a call saying that they would like Alison to come in for a interview. I arrived at the interview, with my birth certificate, to proof I did not lie on the resume if asked. You could see they were uncomfortable with the fact that I was a guy. There was a group audition, myself and three women. They had us read the anouncements, talked about the uniforms, which were clearly gender specific, and how several of the "girls" pooled money for different appartments in different citys since you didn't always end up where you started, which I thought was a good job perk.

Needless to say I didn't get the job.

I did however get a job selling encyclopedia's, which was strictly commission based. (I did not sell a single one.) so I recieved no pay, and had the expense of driving to everyone elses house to try and sell them encyclopedias in a down economy, with about the only thing they had going for them was that they were so up to date that they even had that Bill Clinton was the President.

Out of unemployment, I then got a job in the same field that I had worked at before. Started at $12.00 when I left 15 years later I was making $21.00 But I had to move for the job in their Connecticut office.

In the late 90's I was given a four month assignment in Virginia that lasted two years. In that time they stopped doing what I did in the connecticut office, mostly because I was in Virginia, and when the job was over I had a choice of being let go or returning to the New Hampshire office. (there is another story in there but this will be TLDR anyway)

Now in late 2001, I met the woman I would spend five years with. I was on assignment on a several month job in Washington DC, This was a massive job hundreds of workers, she was one of them. On this job several of the workers were pairing up off hours for sex, Although she spoke very little english, and I spoke very little spanish, she made it very clear to me that she wanted to have sex. I figured what the hell, why not. So for about a month we dated, When the job ended. I was returning to the Boston Area, she to New York. I told her that I didn't think a long distance relation ship would work but I would give it a shot.

About three months into the long distance relationship, about when was going to call if off, I got her pregnant. One month after that she lost the baby, one month after that the lump was confirmed to be breast cancer, and she had to have a masectomy. So we stayed together because what kind of Jackass would I be if I dumped her then.

Because of the operation she was unable to work, most of the medical was paid by her insurance, which she had because she worked in a union. But it does not pay the rent or the car payment.

Now, here is what I did for a girlfriend. I had her car traded in for a car I put in my name. (she owed $7,000) more than the trade in value. So she could still have transportation to do what she needed to do, because they were going to repo her car. I moved out of my apartment and slept in my car and office through the winter months during the week and drove to New York on weekends, taking all the overtime I could, working double shifts so that she and her four children could stay in their apartment. The eldest son was old enough to work but was a lazy lay-about intrested in Yu-gi-Oh. I'll admit that it urks me that I slept in my car so that he could sleep in a bed (til noon) and still give me attitude about cleaning up the apartment.

I'd rather you do what you need to to take care of business, rather than lay about saying I'm being to hard a taskmaster.

Last year I left my old job of 15 years and took another position that will result in me loosing about $20,000 from last year, mostly in overtime. I typically averaged 700 hours of overtime. (Work year is 2080 hours) the Year Katrinia hit. I had 2080 hours on August 1. While I may have had one employer, I have worked two jobs for several years.

At my new Job I typically work 10-12 hour days and at least 3 out of 4 Saturdays. but being Salary I don't see any more money than if I was working 5 eight hour days. Why do I do it. It is work that needs to be done. Some of it is the nature of a small business, some of it is a learning curve, Some of it is pride in the work I put out, so if it takes me a couple more hours to get something to where I think it should be rather than good enough I do it.

so what expierence am I clearly not speaking from?

I have had a minimum wage job,
I have taken a job for less money,
I have been unemployeed through no fault of my own,
I have supported a family through a medical crisis.
I have worked 16 hour days to make ends meet.

I have had medical insurance for over twenty years, and been to the doctor three times, (Two of which weren't covered by insurance anyway).

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Why only three times?

If I had insurance, I'd go once a year so I could get anything that was about to go wrong hopefully taken care of before that.

My rationale in favor of nationalized basic healthcare is that people would be healthier, WORK MORE, generate more money for the economy (likely more than the cost of their healthcare) and so on. I'm not suggesting EVERYTHING be subsidized by the government but routine checkups and associated bloodwork shouldn't be a worry.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

1) I was stung by a bee, and am allergic to bee stings. (under deductible)

2) I had chest pains, doctors could not tell me the cause.

3) I used a microscope, there is a test slide where you are supposed to see 5 lines I could only see three, rather than accecpt that it was the microscope, my boss said it was my eyes, had to go to an eye doctor to prove I had 20/20 vision. (not covered).

As part of my job OSHA required an annual physicial.

Oh, I also had 4 wisdom teeth pulled, covered by dental.

You want people to be healthier, pay for them to be heathier. And by pay I mean gym membership tax free. Visit the dentist, it's a write off, Doctor too. Your employer gets to deduct any money they contribute into your medical fund which is portable.

It is not about health, it is about control. I am what makes insurance work. I pay into a system that I don't use. so that my girlfriend can withdraw from that pool more than she put in.

People won't work more. Do you say, If I only had insurance I would work 50 hours instead of 40? of course not. If you want insurance, find a job that gives you insurance. It just depends if it is a priority for you.

For the person who had his teeth rot dental hygiene was not a priority. But comes a-running when he can get free teeth.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Fishing has always been my favourite hobby.

Your point is now validated, aslong as you are telling the truth, and you have no reason to tell otherwise.

Though I would advise being a tad calmer next time, but anger does always bring out the best arguements when given the ability to rationalise with a keyboard.

Though you strong and elongated response explains you may be somewhat defensive over what I have said. And why would you? Thats the question sir. Thats the question. But not an important one.

I'll return to my usual enjoyment of the forum basis and not general discussion now. Good day

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Jumba

I am calm and not angry or defensive. I know it is difficult to read someones voice in text.

You asked for evidence that I spoke from experience. I simply provided it.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Gender, the problem I think we're facing in communicating the idea to you is you take this on a personal and therefore individualized basis. What I mean by work more isn't that you would then be able to do 50 hours, it's the amount of labor and time lost when injuries and diseases and so forth go untreated or undetected because the person does not wish to pay thousands of dollars to check what could be a minor thing...only for it to be a major thing.

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Re: Social security and health insurance.
 

Not as much as you think. Everyone keeps treating it like it's free. People need to understand that ignoring the cost doesn't make it go away.

Never said otherwise, I wasn't comparing the two. The point was that Canada's system just exchanges one set of problems for another and I think I did make that clear enough.

You think people don't do that already?

Whatever preventative care would save would be chicken feed compared with getting rid of all the regulatory burden that weighs down the system.

Ah, I can't wait any longer. Here! Here's the solution everyone's been waiting for right here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYeyl...e=channel_page

Watch it, learn it, understand it, then say what you think of it.