Should we have AR/AP?

[insomniac]

It's quite a simple question. Yet, as we delve deeper into the meaning of the terms Age Regression and Age Progression, we find everything becomes, well, not so simple.

Age Regression, it seems to this community, is the process in which a female becomes a younger version of herself. The amount of age lost is a large variable. Most of the time, it seems to be more than ten years of age. An average ending age isn't too definable other than "before puberty."

Mentally, most of the pictures created by users have the woman still retaining her adult mind, making the act of regressing often a sad, scary affair. Other times, her mind also regresses, removing most, if not all, of the old memories she once had.

Sex with a regressed woman, I think, should be put right along as part of the AR issue. Whether it is in the pictures or not, even if it is suggested or not.

The reason it should be right along with it is because even the other people on this forum can clearly see the pedophilic lines drawn with every image and manga submitted.

To have these images here is a mixed feeling in my mind. I have AR stored on my computer. Every time I browse past that folder, I ask myself, should I really have that folder? Why am I really looking at these images? Is there some subconscious part of me that wants to have sex with those now-underaged women? I'd like to think not.


Age Progression, as it seems to this community, is taking a young woman, usually before puberty or before she is of the average legal age of 18, and turning the clock forward until she is usually in her prime, most sexually ripe stage.

Often, clothes are ripped because only her physical body is changed. Nudity ensues. She often does not mentally progress as well. She may have wanted these changes for various reasons, and now she is going to achieve whatever goal she had in mind with this new older body, whatever that goal may be.

When the woman does mentally progress, it is often to the extent that she no longer is unknowing of what many real-world things are. In a lot of mangas, she knows what sex is now. She knows what to do in various situations. Some times, she might even be slightly concerned about finances, for cripes sake.

The issue here is two fold. The first is, is it okay because she is now mentally and physically older? Is this not the same as regular sex, because she is now a woman in every sense of the word? But if that were the case, if you take the AP out, are you left with just a picture of a woman, and not a girl?

The other issue is if she isn't older in her mind. Is this okay, because her body is not young even though her mind is? If you were to remove whatever element to suggest she is still young in her mind, would you be able to tell she was once, for instance, a 10 year old girl?


I'm not sure if this thread will spark a debate and I don't want to turn this into a flame war. I'm not calling out a single person. I just want to deeply, humanely, thoughtfully, and honestly discuss the issues related to AR/AP, and as a whole maybe come to some conclusion as to whether or not we should have it here. I know that this is not my site. It's Lorekeep's. But I also know that we as a whole are a community. I want to see this site continue just as much as Lorekeep does. I want to see content that I'm interested in. We all do. This is not a call to end AR/AP on the internet. I've tried to lay out some questions we should ask ourselves, but I encourage everyone to find more angles than what I have. I'm sure there are more that I haven't thought of. We need to all understand what AR/AP is and come to a conclusion about it.


From here on in this post, this is my opinion on the matter.

To put it bluntly, this is because someone posted a link to some cub porn that is at FurAffinity. To those who do not know, cub porn is essentially sex (or suggestive pictures of) with underage furry characters. The sequence posted depicted a woman having sex with her son, and regressing throughout the sequence.

I don't want to call out that single sequence, however. I don't want to call out that poster either. It made me look at AR and AP as a whole.

In the end I have to say that I don't want AR and AP here. I know I can't change that. I'm not a mod and I'm not Lorekeep. I know that he doesn't have to listen to me.

I know for a fact that any AR image can instantly make someone think you are a pedophile. I've seen it happen. To be honest, I don't blame them. Most of the things posted are, no matter how we try to dodge around it, are pedophilic. I have AR and AP on my computer. I have honestly come to the conclusion, after nearly 10 years of looking at it, that I don't want it and I'm going to stop. It's not worth the risk of someone finding it. Be it a family member, or hell, a law enforcement official.

By now you're saying "well dumbass, if you don't want it, don't look at it." Quite true. Whether or not this discussion leads to the deletion of the AR/AP section, I won't look at it anymore. But, I really don't want any of those nasty things to happen to any of us. Just one image can ruin a marriage. It can expose someone and downright ruin their lives.

Those who look at AR and AP will often tell you that it's okay because none of those people are real. They are just pixels on a screen. It's harmless because none of it involves real people.

So, along those lines, can I make a picture of a ton of underage, regressed girls having sex with each other and you'd tell me it's okay because in no way would I ever think about those girls being real, right? I mean, as long as they are mentally over the age of 18, it's okay, right? Or is it okay too if they are not over 18 in their minds because even though the image doesn't suggest it they will be adults again soon?

Nevermind the sex. Lets just talk about a woman going up or down in age. Is it really okay if she was underage and got older? Just because she is 25 now, it's okay to look at her even though not five minutes ago she was thinking about playing with barbies and having a sleepover?

Personally, I want to see the AR/AP section go because I'm worried that something is going to happen with the AR/AP community as a whole and this site will simply join a long list that gets paraded around as a bunch of freaking pedophiles and it would only be a matter of time before all of us, whether we look at the AR/AP section or not, are revealed and labeled as a bunch of child molesting freaks. I don't even blame anyone here for having the fetish. You like it and that's fine. I thought I liked it, but not any more. I don't want to see all of us go down.

Think of it this way. An underage girl enters a bar. Maybe some of them know she's just a little underage. Someone takes her upstairs and has sex with her. Then, the cops bust in. At some point, they are all going to have to deal with the fact that <i>they let it happen.</i> They will all be thrown in front of the cameras, with everyone thinking that they are all part of some freakish child porn ring. Sure, you can say, who cares what other people think. But really, it does matter when you lose your job a few weeks later over some bullshit reason, but deep down you know why. You could be completely innocent, but you were there, and you let it happen.

I'm not going to say this won't happen. It has every probability that some day it will. I truly and honestly just don't want to see us get caught up in it when it does happen. At the least we could say, we got rid of that. We stopped it. We don't have to flame and ban and abandon everyone on the AR/AP board. Just kindly ask them to post elsewhere.

[Test-0]

Thing is, since almost everyone has the 'characters aren't real and thus unimportant' mindset they just don't care what happens to these characters. The majority of the people here don't seem to have any problem with characters being changed into brainless rape puppets, why should starting age be any different? None of it matters since they aren't 'real'. A horrible mindset, but there's almost no chance it'll change.

Posting this thread was a mistake that you're going to be attacked for by mindless zealots even if you're right. Your not by the way. There is a LOT more to AR and AP then pedo sex, much in the same way TG isn't all revenge minded rape fantasy's, shrink isn't a domination over the shrunken, growth isn't always gaining power over others. Close mindedness doesn't belong in a place like this, not while so much other smut can slip past peoples ideals as ok.

[Vengeance1701]

The problem is you're also condemning AP of legal aged stuff and AR of legal aged stuff.

Personally, I like more AP that's like around age 17 to maybe age 25 or so, more the final flowering of beauty.

AR, I'm not a huge fan of but what about where a woman goes from 40 to 22? That's still AR. And that's also legal.

Honestly, I don't see alot of people with the attitude you describe Test, there's only a few users who kinda creep me out in the AR/AP section.

[SoylentOrange]

Originally Posted by Test-0

brainless rape puppets

Jesus Christ, speak for yourself. o_0

[Test-0]

Originally Posted by SoylentOrange

Jesus Christ, speak for yourself. o_0

Not quite sure what you mean with that since it's obvious I'm opposed to the idea.

Also I meant in general, not just the AR/AP sections of the forums or just the forums themselves.

[SoylentOrange]

Ah. No harm done then, I suppose.

[Prof_Sai]

Thing is, since almost everyone has the 'characters aren't real and thus unimportant' mindset they just don't care what happens to these characters. The majority of the people here don't seem to have any problem with characters being changed into brainless rape puppets, why should starting age be any different? None of it matters since they aren't 'real'. A horrible mindset, but there's almost no chance it'll change.

I certainly care. The brainless rape puppets are a form of murder IMHO - I hate stories that do that. Mental AR and (especially) mental AP just make no sense to me and seem wrong.

IMHO, A child who looks like an adult is still a child. Real life courts will not accept "she looked over 18" as a defense. It is the mind that needs to be protected, because she doesn't have the experience to make meaningful decisions on her own. I believe that some people who are mentally handicapped can have the same legal status at any age - despite what they look like, they are not mentally capable of giving meaningful consent.

AR is largely about loosing social status. Imagine having to drive, or go shopping as an 8-year-old. Imagine trying to keep your job, or survive in a crisis. There are plenty of non-sexual stories out there.

[TrumanGrace]

Would you argue that all furries or animal tf fans are zoophiles? AR/AP is no more limited to pedophilia than furry/animal tf's are limited to zoophilia, and I think comparing it to such is rather disingenuous. That doesn't mean I'm naive enough to think that no one who likes the stuff has a sexual attraction, but that applies to everything, not just AR, and not just transformation, fetish sites, etc, but everything. I can't speak for others who like it, but for me, it's not a sexual thing to see people get younger or older.

I believe they both should be allowed. I would have no problem, myself, if there was a rule against explicit work in that subforum, but that's my own preference as to what I want to see. I think most of what you said (f.ex. "a single image can ruin a marriage) can apply to any thing you might find on this forum and if that was the logic behind removing it, none of the forums would exist. All that said, I don't even visit that subforum a lot, but in all honesty, I don't like the recent backlash against age tf's and the equations of them to pedophilia. A lot that is on this site could theoretically be equated to something worse, even if very few seem to express an interest to go that far into it.

[Snowglare]

Originally Posted by Vengeance1701

The problem is you're also condemning AP of legal aged stuff and AR of legal aged stuff.

Personally, I like more AP that's like around age 17 to maybe age 25 or so, more the final flowering of beauty.

AR, I'm not a huge fan of but what about where a woman goes from 40 to 22? That's still AR. And that's also legal.

Originally Posted by Prof_Sai

There are plenty of non-sexual stories out there.

*nod nod* I agree with you on some points, insomniac. I have very little age-related tf stuff anymore and stopped going to that section of the forum months ago. It can get very disturbing. But so can any other tf fetish. I get creeped out sometimes by people saying women should get breast implants, as if that would seriously be a good thing, and by the similarities between animal TF and bestiality.

Really, any forced transformation can be seen as cruel, as something we shouldn't take pleasure in. But, although I believe there are lines you oughtn't cross, they are fictional characters and it is fantasy. If any of the transformations depicted on The Process, with a few exceptions, were to happen to me or someone I know, I'd think it a terrible thing. And in many stories it is. An American Werewolf in London? Guy turns into a rampaging beast and murders people until he has to be put down. That's no fun at all. It's only by separating the reality from the fantasy that one can enjoy the highly detailed transformation from man to beast, to look upon a terrible thing and call it good.

Age regression and progression can be terrible, but even when it doesn't fit neatly within societal parameters it can be as healthy as any sexual fetish. Or non-sexual interest, for that matter. One of the few AR items I still have is a clip from the G. I. Joe ep where Lady Jaye is turned into a kid. I consider it more cute than anything, not at all erotic but fun in its own way.

What many people seem to overlook, perhaps because they don't read Savage Love, is that most fetishes can be approximated with consenting partners. If you truly want to... you know... with kids... eww. Then you should seek professional help. If instead you're attracted to the idea of transforming, in accelerating or reversing the aging process, you can roleplay it. By yourself, you can pretend.

I don't know, maybe I give people too much credit by thinking it doesn't have to be all or nothing, that they can separate reality from fantasy. Maybe most people have to keep their fantasy world in line with the real world to avoid flipping out and raping someone. Maybe they can't drool over video game vixens without comparing real women unfavorably to them, holding out until they find someone as hot as Lara Croft.

[insomniac]

I guess I just have a problem with AR being on a board that has other sexual fetishes on it. It's kind of like having porn right next to the kids section at the video store.

The mindless drones can post and flame me all they want, I don't care.

I know theres numerous angles to every fetish, but the simple fact is those in the real world who have power don't care.

I do agree there's a lot of terrible things that can be done to a fetish, so to speak. With my shrinking fetish, I know there's the vore community, but I know nothing of it other than a little bit slips into the regular shrinking community now and again.

And also test, just because "everyone else" has a certain view, we should cater to them? I hope I'm not coming off as elitist when I say that the people who like underaged kids getting banged by their parents should get the fuck off the internet. The rest, well I don't know.

[Prof_Sai]

Why do we have movies like "The Saw" and then get squeamish about someone becoming short?

[TrunKated]

It's up to the admins to decide, but I say, if isn't illegal and it's process applied to females, well, there you go. A lot of AR/AP doesn't DIRECTLY involve sex anyway. Maybe the rule should change to include no-sex-with-underage-drawings. Sounds silly, though. Oh, well. Some people hate TG and they don't go to those boards. Just don't go to that AR subforum. That being said, I notice that ararchive has been posting TOO many caption photos. I am on the same page as you when it involves non-cartoons, even if there is no lascivious nudity with the stuff. Not cool! But there is some G-rated AR and AP out there and some of it is in the mainstream media, maybe even on network tv on Saturday am? What about that?