On the subject of Trolls

[Sephie]

Originally Posted by Schwarzd354

I have to agree with Clickme on this issue. Debate is one thing, and is publicly recognized as requiring skill. However, from what I've seen of trolls, they don't debate. They attack someone's position, then claim they themselves are beyond reproach. I have yet to see a troll take responsibility for the impact of their behavior. Trolling is not an art form. If you have proof to the contrary, please show me. But from what I have seen, trolling is childish, petty grandstanding. And that's a polite definition.

If I were to view a thread wherein two posters tossed their opinions back and forth, along with evidence and supporting arguments, I would call that debating. But I'm not seeing a lot of that. Instead I'm viewing posts that have random and uncalled for posts that blatantly confront, dismiss or outright insult someone else's point of view. Then, when that post is argued against, the poster responds by stating that they were within their right to say such things. And that their behavior is justified. Yet they give no reason for this other than that "You people need to not get upset over nothing." I go back to my starting post here, even if that first confrontational comment was meant to be facetious, that is difficult if not impossible to convey through text.

Two side notes. First, Taruby pointed out to me what lurkers are, so strike the usage of lurker from my starting post. Second, TrumanGrace, I was being polite with my description of fanfiction.net. It hasn't changed much from what you wrote.

By your definition I would classify clickme and soylent orange as the worst trolls on the forum and classify thejakeman as not a Troll.

As for the thread you cited, It amused the creators, was quickly spotted as sarcasm by other posters. If you take things that are irrelevant to yourself more seriously than people who it is rellevant to, the problem might not lie with the person saying the things.

You get upset because you feel that jakeman ignores things that he achnowledges, and claim you don't want to start a fight. That reminds me of something I saw on the news the other day. A guy involved in a low speed chase got out of the car and layed on the ground with his hands behind his back without prompting when he was pulled over. One of the cops shouted he was resisting arrest and 10 cops started beating the perpetrator. The cop explains afterward I didn't want to hurt him but he left me no choice. In response to the beating the perp curls up in fetal position, and the cops force him back into his original position to put on the cuffs.

[thejakeman]

Originally Posted by Schwarzd354

Jakeman, I feel that your responses to what I have said are proving my point. I feel that you are not acknowledging what I have said. Looking at your post above, I see two examples. I clarified my stance on free speech and social awareness, and you disregarded it in a way I personally found rather rude. After first seeing that you felt I was placing restrictions on the right to free speech, I made an effort to clarify myself. Yet I feel you have disregarded if not completely ignored what I have said.

i didn't disregard it, i understand it. i didn't ignore it either. what else is there to say?

Secondly, your comments in regards to Clickme. I wrote earlier that emotions are not something we can control intellectually. Not in my opinion or experience at least. You make a valid point in that self-awareness allows us to control how we display these emotions, but don't you agree that it no amount of self-awareness can stop an emotional reaction from occurring? My point here being that I feel you have not acknowledged what I have said about emotions. You say that Clickme chooses to be annoyed with you? I'm sorry but I don't feel that emotions are so voluntary.

well, i disagree. i think people choose what to be annoyed about and how much. in my experience, such is how the world works.

For what else you've said here, let me address that. Again, maybe interpreting posts as humor first will "Save me hours of grief". But why is the onus on me? Or on any reader? During a face-to-face conversation, is it only the listener's responsibility to interpret the speaker? I don't believe so. And while I have previously stated that tone of voice and body language are lost in text conversations, I feel that the responsibility to fully understand is up to both the listener and the speaker.

well, why is the onus on them to ensure your continued mental well being? the writer isn't writing explicitly at you, especially on the internet. taking things both personally and seriously is just not an option. in real life, as i've said, it is different. in real life, you assume that someone is serious first.

This leads into what you said about my first post you saw on this site. If I'm thinking of the same thread then it is the Disposable Army thread http://www.process-productions.com/f...ad.php?t=12914 is that correct? If so, at the time, I was not aware that the poster (Herr Onymous-Bosch) was joking. Because I couldn't tell that was his intent, and as I've said, I tend to take things seriously first and foremost. Once I knew that he was joking, I retracted my post.

yes, but notice how much you reacted to what he said, even though it wasn't even directed at you.

Finally, on a personal note. I again state that I feel you, Jakeman, are disregarding what I have said. And I feel that your responses are unfair because of that. It is not my intent to get into a fight with anyone here. But I feel that your manner of ignoring what I have said, as well as the way you phrase your responses to be confrontational.

unfair? i've read every word you've written. it's all opinion. heck, it's your opinion that it's confrontational. I did write these to elicit responses, simply because this is how people work through problems, not by me listening to what you've said and agreeing with you. if you want, you could take everything you felt i've ignored and consider them as things i agree with you on.

That's all I have to say in response to your above post. I'm not going to comment on the history between Clickme and yourself because I do not have enough information to, in my opinion, have a valid stance on the issue.

i appreciate that.

[Taruby]

Originally Posted by Schwarzd354

Trolling is not an art form. If you have proof to the contrary, please show me. But from what I have seen, trolling is childish, petty grandstanding. And that's a polite definition.

Go read a dictionary and inform yourself that art encompasses so much more than what you seem to be indicating.

But if you feel that you can trust what I say without acquiring yourself a respectable dictionary, it's a skill that includes any kind of human activity. Trolling is a human activity, your posting on the board is a human activity, and just about anything you do can be considered art. There is mundane and worthless art I can assure you, like there are crappy artists who draw stickmen or pour white paint on a white canvas. Crappy trolls are fairly obvious and can be spotted by even the most simple of people. Creating a troll that can lure out people takes an exceedingly large amount of time and thought.

Since you want an example of a good troll. Here is one that is good. You may disagree, but that is your opinion.

Originally Posted by A subtle troll

OH HOW I ENVY AMERICAN STUDENTS

Since it's coming up to the start of a new academic year I thought I'd
take this opportunity to explain how lucky you Americans are to have a
fraternity system.

English Universities are so dull by comparison. Like most students
in England I had to rent private accommodation for my second and third
years, but it never occurred to us to build a whole culture around
collectively renting a rather dilapidated house in Clapham. It wasn't
even single sex accommodation, so we couldn't engage in the fun and
games of para-homosexual activities—Girls just don't have the same
grip on your loyalties as your Greek brothers ;-). And while cliques
certainly form in English Universities, they are all much too boring to
come up with the idea of hazing. I fondly recall diving off a weir and
almost drowning when I was 12 because everyone said I was chicken. If
only it had been possible for me to gain respect in later life through
similar tests, and if these tests could have been combined with pseudo
Masonic rituals culminating in the awarding of a little badge, then
that truly would have made my time at University worthwhile. And while
I still have friends from University, these friendships seem so hollow
compared to bonds of fraternal brotherhood since they are not based on
solemn vows of fellowship, mutual sacrifice, group solidarity and
owning the same poxy little badge.

Then there's sheer joy alcohol seems to bring fraternity members..
By the time I went to university the delights of getting dangerously
drunk at parties had started to seem mundane. But to American students
in fraternities, the bravado of excessive alcohol consumption is an
exciting new and illicit game where you can prove yourself worthy to
all your male friends and simultaneously circumvent college alcohol
policy—thereby proving what a rebel you are too. Gosh.

I am also rather fond of the references to ancient Greece.
It reeks of a history far nobler and grander than anything a British
University can instill its students with, and the wearing of togas
must make it seem as authentic as a ploughman's lunch.

I think what I am trying to say is that Fraternities give young
Americans the chance to grow up in their own time, and that it is
regrettable that no similar opportunity is afforded to European
Students. In particular, I find it sad that even some American
students forego the opportunity to wear togas and claim to be Greek.
Really this should be mandatory, so every graduate will be secure in
the knowledge that they have gained something much more valuable than
a degree from an American University—a little badge with some Greek
letters on it.

Although I am not American, I admire the system so much that I would
dearly love to become an honorary member of a fraternity. I have set
my heart on becoming an alumni of Theta Omicron Sigma Sigma Epsilon Ro
Sigma. I do so hope this is possible.

This troll ran for over a year and generated over 3,500 responses which amounts to an average of one response every 160 minutes. Also, an innocent student lost both her internet account and was expelled from high school for abusing the computer system since she was somehow blamed for causing the troll.

[Soty]

Is not baiting a flamebaiting troll itself an act of trolldom?

I mean, unless the ends justify the means, of course.

[PrBlahBlahtson]

Originally Posted by Soty

Is not baiting a flamebaiting troll itself an act of trolldom?

I mean, unless the ends justify the means, of course.

No, it's giving the troll what they want. So while this entire drama-fest over thejakeman is playing directly into his hands, personally I think it was necessary to finally leave him with the "shape up or ship out" ultimatum. It's definitely relieved just a little bit of tension I had in seeing his antics hurting others without reprisal.

- edit -
But hey, we could always adopt this method.

[thejakeman]

Originally Posted by PrBlahBlahtson

No, it's giving the troll what they want. So while this entire drama-fest over thejakeman is playing directly into his hands, personally I think it was necessary to finally leave him with the "shape up or ship out" ultimatum. It's definitely relieved just a little bit of tension I had in seeing his antics hurting others without reprisal.

- edit -
But hey, we could always adopt this method.

i love it when people say it's "playing into my hands" it makes me sound so much smarter and crafty than i really am. this drama fest was created by soylent oragne, not me. i didn't viciously attack anyone. i even quit before it went too far but soy just kept on coming.

and really, it's hardly an ultimatum.

[FireStorm]

Trolling is like art, in that it involves some use of feeling. However unlike art, it doesn't produce anything, its never worth any money, and its only enjoyable in a very stupid way.
Its sort of like those action movies that are a bunch of cliches strung together, but even more stupid, and theirs no good guy to root for (and no one EVER gets the girl).
To troll you need to be smart enough to play people around, stupid enough not to find something better to do, and dysfunctional enough that you won't have any friends you can hang out with (thus allowing you to devote your energy to the grand pursuit).
If you make some friends, you risk evolving into a normal human, which will seriously throw off the amount of effort you can put into your game.

[thejakeman]

Originally Posted by FireStorm

Trolling is like art, in that it involves some use of feeling. However unlike art, it doesn't produce anything, its never worth any money, and its only enjoyable in a very stupid way.

this is untrue, trolling quite often makes loads of money and produces quite a bit. see every major corporation ever. and, unless you're stupid or very easily offended, trolling is quite enjoyable.

Its sort of like those action movies that are a bunch of cliches strung together, but even more stupid, and there's no good guy to root for (and no one EVER gets the girl).

that's a terrible analogy

To troll you need to be smart enough to play people around, stupid enough not to find something better to do, and dysfunctional enough that you won't have any friends you can hang out with (thus allowing you to devote your energy to the grand pursuit). If you make some friends, you risk evolving into a normal human, which will seriously throw off the amount of effort you can put into your game.


this sounds like something that a passive aggressive person would say to assuage their hurt feelings "hey, my feeinlgs are hurt, he must not have any friends. i have three friends so i am superior in some way! yay!"
you haven't the slightest idea what trolls do day to day so any comments on it are purely.... insulting trollish comments.

another douche, another day.

[Taruby]

Originally Posted by FireStorm

Trolling is like art, in that it involves some use of feeling. However unlike art, it doesn't produce anything, its never worth any money, and its only enjoyable in a very stupid way.
Its sort of like those action movies that are a bunch of cliches strung together, but even more stupid, and theirs no good guy to root for (and no one EVER gets the girl).
To troll you need to be smart enough to play people around, stupid enough not to find something better to do, and dysfunctional enough that you won't have any friends you can hang out with (thus allowing you to devote your energy to the grand pursuit).
If you make some friends, you risk evolving into a normal human, which will seriously throw off the amount of effort you can put into your game.

http://www.amazon.com/Prank-Monkey-Z...7786246&sr=1-1

Your lack of imagination regarding the implementation of trolling saddens me immensely.

EDIT: John Hargrave is happily married and has two beautiful children.

[TrunKated]

The basic definition of a troll is a "provocative posting intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses." Some also define a Trolling as a "deliberate and intentional attempts to disrupt the usability of..." whatever website. Now Taruby wants to classify the quality of trolls, saying the best are an elite group or something. Well, the best are the most skilled and less obvious surely so they are elite in that respect. But elite or simple-minded, trolling is often considered in very negative terms, I really don't see what goes on here as anything that horrible. None of jake's, taruby's, lookatits, and other's thread-starter posts are that terrible, I don't think. Sure they produce SOME silly responses. Some anger. Some confusion. But none of them get THAT many responses and they get cold and die pretty quickly. Certainly, they aren't making the site unusable.

The most frivalous and largest thread out there right now is the Insult the Person Above You one. And it's really just fun. And not too many people are taking it seriously, I don't think. I mean, I didn't really mean any of the insults I tossed into it, and I even started making some of them generic so if someone popped up between who I thought was a target and my post, it would apply to anyone.

NOW, surely the largest threads out there are the RP's. Are RP's "provocative posting(s) intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses?" I think one could argue that they ARE. So, in a way, they are the most elaborate and successful trolling on the site., especially if some of the participants are just doing it to get a response rather than really participate. I bet there are a couple of people there like that. But who knows?

On another note, perhaps one could find the most evil trolling in warmonger politicians, along with their propaganda media. Boy have trolled us!

The flip-side is that some trolling is just fun, I suppose. Maybe? Yes, like a kind of PRANK, taruby. YOU'VE GOT TROLLED!

But again, the silly posts in FBS are nothing really, IMHO. Now when people get nasty down in the transformation media categories or the art requests sections, I think people REALLY are treading on thin ice. It's just not right to be impolite there, I think. It's hard enough to get process media without insulting artists and treasure hunters. And people don't always take things as they are meant, when it is just typed out, as many have repeated. So I think let the flaming BS stay in FBS. Police some of it if needed, and keep things polite in the main categories.

Just my thoughs.

[Taruby]

Originally Posted by TrunKated

The basic definition of a troll is a "provocative posting intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses." Some also define a Trolling as a "deliberate and intentional attempts to disrupt the usability of..." whatever website.

Real Trolling is manipulating circumstances in a community to the point where people want to kill you or each other while you fall out of your chair laughing.

Originally Posted by TrunKated

But elite or simple-minded, trolling is often considered in very negative terms, I really don't see what goes on here as anything that horrible.

It's probably negative only to those who have been trolled and are still bitter about it. One false accusation is that trolls are inflammatory when the ones who are inflammatory are actually flamers. One of the better flamers on this board is wolfman-al.

A lot of the inflammatory trolls I call flaming trolls because it's very simple. For example, it's incredibly piss poor trolling to post negative or insulting comments on Youtube since every idiot and their crazy grandma puts their worthless opinion in the youtube comments anyway, it's kind of like pissing in a sea of piss. So, there are experiments in creating youtube troll videos. This first video is pretty much an experiment using inflammatory means:


The title for this youtube troll is "BLEACH SUCKS". Anyone who isn't a sucker should be able to avoid viewing the video or posting in the video's comments. Unfortunately, there are quite a number of comments for this video by suckers. =P

After doing the bleach video, the troll went on to doing a video about Warcraft using the title " WARCRAFT = CRAPCRAFT":


What's interesting about this method of trolling is that one is just voicing an opinion, and anyone who disagrees with the video maker's opinion is at a disadvantage for instigating a quarrel.

Finally, the next youtube video is a about the Incredible Hulk movies:


First of all, the title is a little more devious than its predecessors:
"HULK SUCKS, SORTA , MARVEL IS OK"
This will annoy people through implicit means. Also, rather than being inflammatory right off the bat, it sounds much more objective and tries to string the sucker viewers to its abrupt conclusion.

[FireStorm]

One bizare but effective approach for dealing with youtue trolls, post the comment "Furry porn discussions go here". It pisses off the troll and discourages people from posting comments (which would fuel their trolling).
Of course, theirs als just ignoring them or enganging them without flaming them or getting worked up