McCain bashed by Paris Hilton

[TrunKated]

Old argument...?

Originally Posted by genderhazard

Not really.

Yes, lol! It's a very old argument. People have been arguing about the Iraq war for a long time. Where have you been?
hehehe

So our fault we were attacked. The people who did it died in te attack anyways. Oh well?

I didn't say that, and you know it. I'm trying to say the administration had tons of warning that it ignored. I think it was EXTREME incompetance and lack of caring about our country, myself. They knew something was coming and didn't prepare or care. (I'll leave the conspiracy concepts to someone else)

They had 550 metric tons of yellow birthday cake.

Yep, this is something that's been trotted out recently as an embarrassingly pathetic attempt to pretend they viable WMD long long after the fact. This stuff you're talking about was well known by the UN inspectors and was under lock and key, as I understand it. It was sold legally to a Canadian company.

Probably best summed up by "Never start a fight but always finish it."

We tried diplomacy with Iraq, and Afganistan. It was ineffectual, and with Iraq probably gave them enough time to move the WMDs to Syria.

Perhaps, yes, with Afghanistan. But we cut off diplomacy and rushed the inspectors out of Iraq in order to start the illegal war. Simply we did not try enough diplomacy.

And why bother with the Iraq war anyway? They were not a threat to us and were being bombed by us all the time even before the invasion. They were contained.

Why did we need to invade? There really is no logical reason beyond greed, oil, and the desire for a strategic place of operation, since we let SA kick us out.

Nope Oil for food is just an example of what happens when you entrust the "international community."

So a couple of scandals is enough to never trust anyone? Then why do you trust W and company. They've had about .... what 50 scandals or so? Maybe more?

Well, this guy lists 372 W and company scandals:

http://www.netrootsmass.net/Hugh/Bush_list.html

Historically all good reasons for going to War.

There are no good reasons to go to war, except direct self defense. None. Ever. (IMHO)

Our economy is not destroyed. Technically it is not even in recession. The Housing market (which has nothing to do with the war) is in "Crisis" because people bought houses who couldn't afford them.

Oil prices are high, but if we had stared drilling and building oil refineraries when it was proposed during the Clinton presidency that would be under control.

Corn prices are high because of ethenol. which affects grain and meat prices. Again nothing to do with the war.

Frankly if you do not have a familymember in the military you can go about your daily routine and not even realize we are at war.

Not with thre crippling costs of food and energy now. We went from a surplus to debt. People are being crushed by job loss, high costs, and expensive credit. I feel the pain every day, and I have a pretty good job.

Must be nice to be independently wealthy, like you, dude.

Why? Historically War with Iraq is justifiable. We probably have sufficent cause to go to War with Mexico. It doesn't take much to trigger a War generally speaking.

your memo story has all sorts of cavaets in it slug line "ex-CIA official says Cheney likely ordered letter linking Hussein to 9/11 attacks.

I read the transcript.

Ron: Now this is from the Vice President's Office is how you remembered it--not from the president?

Rob: No, no, no. What I remember is George saying, 'we got this from'--basically, from what George said was 'downtown.'

Ron: Which is the White House?

Rob: Yes. But he did not--in my memory--never said president, vice president, or NSC. Okay? But now--he may have hinted--just by the way he said it, it would have--cause almost all that stuff came from one place only: Scooter Libby and the shop around the vice president.

Taking the transcript at it's word, (audio or video would be better) he says it did not come from the Vice President, everything else is speculation, to sell a book I might add.

The transcript "comes on the heels of denials by both the White House and Richer of a claim Suskind made in his new book, The Way of The World. "

Again, I think most people on earth except warmongers would agree war is not justifiable except as direct self defense. Do you beat people up in bars because they look at you funny, dude? Are you that type? Do you decide that your neighbor is hiding a shotgun so you break into his house and kill his pets and maybe his brother? I really don't understand your violent attitude?

Otherwise, why not sign up and go fight in Iraq, dude?!?

Oh, and there a lot of other forgeries and lies leading up to the war. Nit pic that one, but what of the yellow "birthday" cake forgery? What of the Downing Street Memo?

Head in the sand much?

You know, I don't mean to be that nasty to you. I really like you and your very smart posts. I just don't get the pro-war thing. I have very conservative relatives who now hate W and agree with me on the war. They will probably vote for Obama, but they will vote Republican the rest of the time. They used to argue with me about W. Now they just are just resigned that W was a waste. They are very down about the war and the economy. I guess I should respect you for your persistence. But I don't understand it.

Ah the politics of personal destruction. Do I ever personally attack you? I have a different view point so I must be a closetted serial killer.

No, I am just trying to understand why people support death and destruction. I really don't get it. Sure, it's fine in defense. Someone threatens me or my family and I'm there! But a pre-emptive war? How about I decide the guy on the next block might some day steal my bike? Should I fake evidence and then kill him?

I find War distasteful but a nessisary evil. Would I like AQ to take all there troops out to the middle of the desert face coilliton forces head on in a "You got a problem with us bring it bitch battle." sure but that ain't gonna happen.

Diplomacy and cooperation only work when it is mutually adventageous to both parties. Iraq had years to comply with UN sanctions, The Taliban would be in power if they handed over Osama Bin Ladden.

There are other countries who are violating more UN sanctions than Iraq and they are our best friends. Your argument holds no water.

And war is an unnecessary waste of time, lives and money. It's a racket.

Facts are facts, Opinion does not negate fact.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

oh, a good old political showdown. let me slaughter all your sacred cows. the war was wring, obama is in the pocket of corporate interests, people are dying each day thanks to bush, the middle east is justified in their hatred of us, McCain is a puppet figurehead, the Jerry Falwell/billy graham crowd controls over half of american through religious brainwashing and self destructive Armageddon focused campaigns of fear and bigotry, your elected officials don't give a flying fuck about you, unless you hold some money over their heads. people are petty, vicious and irredeemable, god is dead, the universe is dying, compassion has killed evolution and science has doomed us all.

[Sephie]

Originally Posted by loliknowrite

oh, a good old political showdown. let me slaughter all your sacred cows. the war was wring, obama is in the pocket of corporate interests, people are dying each day thanks to bush, the middle east is justified in their hatred of us, McCain is a puppet figurehead, the Jerry Falwell/billy graham crowd controls over half of american through religious brainwashing and self destructive Armageddon focused campaigns of fear and bigotry, your elected officials don't give a flying fuck about you, unless you hold some money over their heads. people are petty, vicious and irredeemable, god is dead, the universe is dying, compassion has killed evolution and science has doomed us all.

Thank you.

[ElastiGirl]

Originally Posted by loliknowrite

oh, a good old political showdown. let me slaughter all your sacred cows. the war was wring, obama is in the pocket of corporate interests, people are dying each day thanks to bush, the middle east is justified in their hatred of us, McCain is a puppet figurehead, the Jerry Falwell/billy graham crowd controls over half of american through religious brainwashing and self destructive Armageddon focused campaigns of fear and bigotry, your elected officials don't give a flying fuck about you, unless you hold some money over their heads. people are petty, vicious and irredeemable, god is dead, the universe is dying, compassion has killed evolution and science has doomed us all.

YAY!!!!

[shadowfox586]

Originally Posted by TrunKated

Not with thre crippling costs of food and energy now. We went from a surplus to debt. People are being crushed by job loss, high costs, and expensive credit. I feel the pain every day, and I have a pretty good job.

Must be nice to be independently wealthy, like you, dude.

Unless he/she has already stated that he or she is wealthy, thats quite a speculation. And Gender hazzard said that times are tough, its just not caused by the war. Credit and jobloss have nothing to do with the war. And dont say that im not hurting, because i just went four weeks with no work and drive 50 miles to my school.

Originally Posted by TrunKated

Again, I think most people on earth except warmongers would agree war is not justifiable except as direct self defense. Do you beat people up in bars because they look at you funny, dude? Are you that type? Do you decide that your neighbor is hiding a shotgun so you break into his house and kill his pets and maybe his brother? I really don't understand your violent attitude?

Thats not entirely fair. Iraq didnt look funny at someone, and hiding a shot gun in your house is legal. We had evidence, confirmed by MI6 MI5 and other intelligence agencies by the way, that they had WMDs. If you think thats a forgery, thats speculation, but speculation is fine. Maybe your right, and it was forged and they somehow had the ability to pay off those agencies. But the UN never said 'you cant investigate this is a forgery' which is a legitimate reason to say no, they just said. 'oh thats nice. No.'

And Hussain isnt just your neighbor, hes more like your neighbor with six attempts at murdering his neighbors with a shotgun (His previous attempts to invade other countries). Now you susspect he has a shotgun(WMD). What do you do? call the police. Who was supposed to police this guy? the UN. And we went to them saying 'we think he has this here. can you check for us?' and they said no.

Does this mean we break into the house to take this guy out first? Ill admit, im not entirely sold on that, but if your neighbor had six attempted murders, you call the cops you saw that he has a new gun that hes not supposed to have and they dont give a damn, what DO you do? The problem with your self defence only policy means that you wait until people are killed before you do anything.

Though i will state again i was not for the war and that there should have been other steps taken, i think the very poor handling from the UN is as much to blame as anyone else for us having to invade.

Originally Posted by TrunKated

No, I am just trying to understand why people support death and destruction. I really don't get it. Sure, it's fine in defense. Someone threatens me or my family and I'm there! But a pre-emptive war? How about I decide the guy on the next block might some day steal my bike? Should I fake evidence and then kill him?

Again, he wasnt stealing bikes, he was killing people. And if you think someone is going to steal your bike, you go to the police... you know how this goes now.

And 'If someone threatens my family and im there' Is that only for your family? what if your around when someone is pointing a gun at a random person on the street, do you not care because it wasnt your family? He was killing people, but it wasnt Americans at the moment so we should have ignored it?

And also, Hussain has threatened the Bush family and tried to kill them before, so according to you he has just cause....

Originally Posted by loliknowrite

oh, a good old political showdown. let me slaughter all your sacred cows. the war was wring, obama is in the pocket of corporate interests, people are dying each day thanks to bush, the middle east is justified in their hatred of us, McCain is a puppet figurehead, the Jerry Falwell/billy graham crowd controls over half of american through religious brainwashing and self destructive Armageddon focused campaigns of fear and bigotry, your elected officials don't give a flying fuck about you, unless you hold some money over their heads. people are petty, vicious and irredeemable, god is dead, the universe is dying, compassion has killed evolution and science has doomed us all.

Other than the Middle east is justified thing ( because their hatred is not from the war and regaurdless of that should not hate everyone in a nation for what they feel a few indiduals are doing to them, thats like hating all *insert race or religous group here* because one person from that group beat you up and took your lunch money. DAMN YOU BIFF!) I have to agree with your post, and ask for permission to use it in any political debate i enter into. it sums things up rather nicely.... Quick and to the point.

[Hellstromm, Son of Satan]

Of course guys like genderhazard and shadowfox exist. After all, Bush DID get re-elected, right?

EVERYONE ELSE is sick of it. EVERYONE ELSE is too smart to let Dubya and his choir of boot-lickers brainwash him/her. EVERYONE ELSE knows that they are killing innocent women, children and assorted civilians because they are Muslim (and, according to genderhazard's way of mind, if they are Muslim then they MUST be terrorists). EVERYONE ELSE knows this "war" is just genoceide fueled by xenophobia, racism and intolerance. And guess what? EVERYONE ELSE is sick of it. That's why Obama is a shoo-in winner: he wants to end this mess once and for all.

[genderhazard]

Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, TrunKated? The Military has a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for "innocent" and you curse the President. You have that luxury.

You have the luxury of not knowing what he knows: That those "innocent" deaths, while tragic, probably ultimately saved American lives. And his actions, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want a stong Commander-in-Cheif in the White House. You need them there.

Words like:
honor,
code,
loyalty,
patriotism...

These words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.

I'd prefer you just said "thank your service" and went on your way.

Originally Posted by Hellstromm, Son of Satan

According to genderhazard's way of mind, if they are Muslim then they MUST be terrorists.

There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wop or greasers, because you are all equally worthless. Do you understand?"

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of freedom , then questions the manner in which it is provided.

Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard, but I am fair!

But until that day you are pukes! You're the lowest form of life on Earth. You are not even human fucking beings! You are nothing but unorganized grabasstic pieces of amphibian shit!

EVERYONE ELSE knows this "war" is just genoceide fueled by xenophobia, racism and intolerance. And guess what? EVERYONE ELSE is sick of it. That's why Obama is a shoo-in winner: he wants to end this mess once and for all.

Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and fuck my sister.


greatly lifted from a few good men and full metal jacket