Conservatives Hate Obama More Than They Love America

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by OhZone

Oh, I don't think FDR was evil. He was not perfect, but he tried to help people and the country. That was the Great Depression. We could have gone toward Fascism like the Axis powers but we were lucky that we had someone like FDR to steer us in a more productive direction. And you're right, Germany did declare war on us so it made FDRs entry into the war even easier.

Pop quiz to OhZone or anyone else who thinks the New Deal actually helped alleviate the Depression!

If New Deal actually did help with the Depression, why did it last 10 years and yet the two other recessions that occured in the same century where the government did NOT intervene only lasted one year each?

When answering, keep this in mind: Economies always go through highs and lows. Recessions are inevitable but they always will eventually end. So FDR does not automatically get to take credit just because it ended while he was in office.

[kia252]

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

Pop quiz to OhZone or anyone else who thinks the New Deal actually helped alleviate the Depression!

If New Deal actually did help with the Depression, why did it last 10 years and yet the two other recessions that occured in the same century where the government did NOT intervene only lasted one year each?

When answering, keep this in mind: Economies always go through highs and lows. Recessions are inevitable but they always will eventually end. So FDR does not automatically get to take credit just because it ended while he was in office.

Guess what. All recessions are different. They aren't uniform.

It strikes me as a incredibly arrogant to assume that the one, single variable of a great many variables that contributed to the Great Depression over other recessions is the one that supports your view point. I can't even begin to consider an argument that's so blatantly lop-sided.

In the same vein that just because FDR got involved doesn't credit him with ending the depression, it must be equally true that just because FDR got involved doesn't gain him blame for the severity of the Great Depression. You want to make the claim of causation, you have to show more than correlation.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with popular modern interpretations of the 20th century, but at least have the decency to pull your head out of the echo chamber that is Ron Paul's ass and make a valid argument.

And before you think I'm some FDR fanboy, I will add that I have no qualms equating FDR to a dictator for his many liberties taken with Constitutional law in doing what he thought was right. It's kinda sickening to think about it.

[DalekSec]

How dare you introduce facts LTH when ideology is what matters.

For that matter, if HEALTHCARE (Health insurance reform) is so URGENT...WHY does none of it (Except the taxes) hit until YEARS from now?

More to the point, Govt. fixes NOTHING! We have a ruling class that has no earthly clue what being a citizen is about. They see us as cattle for their power games and little else. They manipulate and control what hits the media and keeps group A screaming about same sex marriage as group B starts fights to push Govt. Healthcare.

Wake up kids, the leaders we have now openly praise Mao, Che, Castro and HUGE Chavez. Imagine if they said how HITLER was a fav philosopher. The fact that Mao, Che, Castro and Chavez are murdering scum means nothing to them. They want power and they want it now and YOU, the happy cattle, will obey or be made to obey.

Does it mean nothing that Socialism, Communism and Marxism has claimed more lives, stolen more freedom than Nazism could have ever dreamed of? Does it not worry you that so many of the Czars sound like deranged monsters IN THEIR OWN WORDS?

President Obama said, as a candidate, to judge him by those he kept around him. Look up the names of his friends and Czars, Google who they are and what they have said!

If you want Animal Farm and 1984 to come to life, we are fast getting there.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by kia252

Guess what. All recessions are different. They aren't uniform.

It strikes me as a incredibly arrogant to assume that the one, single variable of a great many variables that contributed to the Great Depression over other recessions is the one that supports your view point. I can't even begin to consider an argument that's so blatantly lop-sided.

In the same vein that just because FDR got involved doesn't credit him with ending the depression, it must be equally true that just because FDR got involved doesn't gain him blame for the severity of the Great Depression. You want to make the claim of causation, you have to show more than correlation.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with popular modern interpretations of the 20th century, but at least have the decency to pull your head out of the echo chamber that is Ron Paul's ass and make a valid argument.

Since you asked so nicely...oh wait, no you didn't. You spewed insults in lieu of putting anything of value on the table. For that, I'd be entirely justified in blowing off your post.



There you go, history lesson for the day. Take note that the great depression started off not quite as bad as the previous two.

[kia252]

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

Since you asked so nicely...oh wait, no you didn't. You spewed insults in lieu of putting anything of value on the table. For that, I'd be entirely justified in blowing off your post.



There you go, history lesson for the day. Take note that the great depression started off not quite as bad as the previous two.

No, you want to blow off my argument because it's reasonable, and you've displayed before that you can't counter them while spewing Libertarian ideology instead of real arguments because you want and expect people to just buy into them. Isn't it funny how you want to discard my argument because I take a couple jabs at your flawed way of thinking in making a point, only to post a video full of childish attacks on the Federal Reserve and the sitting president that are fairly irrelevant to making the argument.

The video is interesting, and I can understand a lot of arguments advanced. Yes, there was bad governance that contributed to the Great Depression. However, I do not see a strong analysis to blame the severity of the Great Depression solely on the New Deal as you suggest. I appreciate the effort to explain some problems, but I'm concerned that the author works from a foundation of government fault and does not seek to include other factors and sometimes makes stretches to make a claim (i.e. presented timeline not matching statistical trends, disregarding government works projects as part of the New Deal, etc.).

Keep this in mind, Hawkeye, and feel free to take note, Dalek, that deification of the oppositionist figure (i.e. Ron Paul) or stance with the insecurity of truly questioning the argument, is just as dangerous as doing the same with powers that be (Obama et al). Just because I or someone else disagrees with you, does not mean you can designate me some naive fool who must clearly be on the side you so vehemently oppose. "Wake up sheeple" arguments often betray, in my mind, that it is arrogance, not rational, pragmatic thinking, that motivates the debater that chooses to make them.

[DalekSec]

I offer deification to no man. Look hard enough and every human has flaws and this is a GOOD thing.

Do I think Ron Paul has "All the answers"? Nope. Do I think anyone does? Nope. I DO think that the individual is more precious than the collective and the moment we lose sight of that we start down a very dark and tragic road.

Riddle me this Batman. How many private corporations have engaged in GENOCIDE? How many Governments have? If a private corporation steps on you, you can fight back in the courts. Ever try to sue the Govt.? If you do not like the service provided by a private company, you can pick up your cash and try their competition. What competition does Govt. have?

Be wary of giving over your life to folks who rule from above with few real constraints on their powers. Giving them even more power over your life is a bad bet in every single case.

[TrunKated]

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

Since you asked so nicely...oh wait, no you didn't. You spewed insults in lieu of putting anything of value on the table. For that, I'd be entirely justified in blowing off your post.



There you go, history lesson for the day. Take note that the great depression started off not quite as bad as the previous two.

Yes, monetary policy is a huge factor in the economy. (Well, duh), but the implication that hands off would solve all economic problems is BS.

If you measure the depression by GDP, Roosevelt's techniques DID start to turn things around, however slowly..



There is genuine debate on what caused the depression and how we got out.

If you read the imperfect wikipedia article, you will see a lot of debate on the topic and it's not 100% agreed on. shanedk is showing his point of view on the topic, not a true history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

Here is another list of the causes...
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/...depression.htm


Another thing Cons and Libertarians seem to not care about: Familes and kids starving and dying isn't the same as hitchhiking or having to walk to work, while your car is in the shop. Best do anything you can to try to save people. I've read that it's estimated a combined total of close to 12 million Americans died from starvation in Depression. A lot more would have died if nothing was done.

Yeah, the car was in the shop:













Another point is the claim that the unemployment rate after the crash was mild. Perhaps it was only mild because it was just the beginning?



And morphing Obama to Hoover and Bush is frankly idiotic, especially since it's the unregulated free marked that got us to our current "Great Recession." Conservative policy got us here. So, it's VERY misleading to say this is a history lesson, when it's clear the creator of the video has a very specific agenda and has twisted a few but not all of the facts.



I notice shanedk's GNP chart is a little off from the official one. How convenient.

Here's another one, showing that Shanedk's chart exaggerate's the 1937 recession.



However, the 1937 recession within a depression was partly caused by FDR's trying to balance the budget after his increased spending previously.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...s-of-1937.aspx


Meanwhile, so far, Hoverbushbama as this tool would like to think of him, seems to have averted another great depression, perhaps by using the tools shandedk hates.

But, of course, the worst point he had was showing Astaire/Rogers and labelling it the roaring twenties. How dare he! HAHA Astaire/Rogers were musical stars in the 1930s. The first feature-length movie originally presented as a talkie was The Jazz Singer, released in October 1927. Sound movies didn't take over until... coincidentally around the start of the depression... Hmmmm... .

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Will go into more detail later but for now...

No, you want to blow off my argument because it's reasonable

"Get your head out of Ron Paul's ass" is your idea of reasonable? Hilarious and entirely nonsense given that I hadn't even been quoted Ron Paul in the first place. It's one thing to resort to ad hominem attacks but it's quite another to try to and fail to get them right.

Besides, yes not all recessions are the same but that's no excuse to just entirely dismiss the whole question, that's nirvana fallacy. If we went by the theory of "any comparison that's not exact to the smallest detail is entirely invalid," we'd never learn anything.

Another thing Cons and Libertarians seem to not care about: Familes and kids starving and dying isn't the same as hitchhiking or having to walk to work, while your car is in the shop. Best do anything you can to try to save people. I've read that it's estimated a combined total of close to 12 million Americans died from starvation in Depression. A lot more would have died if nothing was done.

This is a real pet peeve of mine. Nit picking an analogy does not make you look smart. It makes you look like you don't know what an analogy is.

Besides, yes! Save the children...by starting up a huge government plan and tax everyone to fund it thus making the populace even POORER. Typical politician reaction to...well pretty much everything.

[TrunKated]

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

Will go into more detail later but for now...



"Get your head out of Ron Paul's ass" is your idea of reasonable? Hilarious and entirely nonsense given that I hadn't even been quoted Ron Paul in the first place. It's one thing to resort to ad hominem attacks but it's quite another to try to and fail to get them right.

Besides, yes not all recessions are the same but that's no excuse to just entirely dismiss the whole question, that's nirvana fallacy. If we went by the theory of "any comparison that's not exact to the smallest detail is entirely invalid," we'd never learn anything.



This is a real pet peeve of mine. Nit picking an analogy does not make you look smart. It makes you look like you don't know what an analogy is.

Besides, yes! Save the children...by starting up a huge government plan and tax everyone to fund it thus making the populace even POORER. Typical politician reaction to...well pretty much everything.

No, it shows the analogy is a bad analogy.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by TrunKated

No, it shows the analogy is a bad analogy.

Define "bad analogy." I could use a good laugh.

[genderhazard]

Originally Posted by TrunKated

There is genuine debate on what caused the depression and how we got out.

TK see that little triangle that says "U.S. rearmament begins in ernest." now see how the line shoots upward.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Okay, first question which relates to this.

Meanwhile, so far, Hoverbushbama as this tool would like to think of him, seems to have averted another great depression, perhaps by using the tools shandedk hates.

You currently sit at 9.5% unemployment with a contraction in nominal spending and investment despite creating a bunch of new money (which devalues your dollar, making everyone effectively poorer)

Riddle me this: What exactly has Obama averted?

TK see that little triangle that says "U.S. rearmament begins in ernest." now see how the line shoots upward.

Besides, IIRC, the video already covered that. It's easy to jump up when you're already at rock bottom but that doesn't mean all is well or what you did was what did it.