Cautionary message about Amazon Eve

[LK]

Originally Posted by Herr Onymous-Bosch

Fuck, I'm turning into my mother...

Whoops. See you in a month.

Really folks, the best advice: Stop giving a shit, and this ain't the best place to preach your views on "what's right."

[LOD]

Originally Posted by Lorekeep

Whoops. See you in a month.

Really folks, the best advice: Stop giving a shit, and this ain't the best place to preach your views on "what's right."

This thread is in the wrong section!!

I see no process, it's really just a troll made by a bigot!

And furthermore banning a trangendered person for loosing their cool over this is beyond unfair!

[Clevens]

So the person in the first link is supposed to be the Amazon Eve person? That's what this is about? I never got it. All i saw was an ad or article about insurance for transgendered people...

[LK]

Originally Posted by liveordie83

This thread is in the wrong section!!

I see no process, it's really just a troll made by a bigot!

And furthermore banning a trangendered person for loosing their cool over this is beyond unfair!

I figure if I was going to respond to liveordie via e-mail, I'd post it here. Once anything you write is online, it's there forever. Best be the original source than someone else!

First off, Bosch's response went over the line. When you need to use words like mother fucking nigger to make a point, you're not really making a good point. Bosch's banning was a capstone on a history of posts. Not a perma-ban but I'm willing to bet if I went through his 8,000 or whatever posts he had, I wouldn't really find anything that contributes positively to the forum.

Second, the fact I responded in the thread rather than deleting it outright should give you an idea that I view the post to be in the right forum.

Third, if you've been paying attention, I'm a big fan of shining a light on people who are being deceptive. It's all well and good until you put yourself out there and give people a false impression as to what you are. If you're a transgendered person, I'm totally cool with that. But telling someone you're a man or a woman, especially when offering services, gives an indication that you've ALWAYS been a man or a woman, and when people find out otherwise, the reaction tends to be much more violent and aggressive than if you had just been upfront about it.

If Eve is transgendered, she's being deceptive, even if the reality of her current situation is true to her and those around her, because she knows if she tells the truth, which matters to some people, and the fact that it matters should not be discriminated against... if she tells the truth, it'll hurt her business. She won't be able to make as much money. So she glosses over details that would be extremely important to potential customers and fans.

She knows it's a societal perception that calling herself a woman is a more acceptable label than the more accurate one.

I don't want to hear "RAH RAH RAH LOREKEEP'S A BIGOT!" I'm being more open minded about it than anyone who says we should accept Eve as a woman. I do; but when we reach the borders of sexuality and attraction, I want to have faith that the feelings I have are genuine. I am NOT attracted to women who were once men, despite an obvious attraction to women in men's clothes!

We can go into the psychology of this as you guys try to prove me wrong, or we can be open-minded, accept my views, and move on... as we should with most reasonable, non-confrontational viewpoints. (Fascism, for instance, is a confrontational viewpoint. Prefering Asians is a non-confrontational one.)

Some people like Eve regardless of her past. Great! But keep in mind... they probably have the truth of the situation before coming to that state.

[The Warlock]

Originally Posted by Lorekeep

I'm being more open minded about it than anyone who says we should accept Eve as a woman.

Dude, hear me: you're really, really not.

You're a friend, so I'm only going to say one more thing on this: your surgery to makeup and heels comparison is flawed, as TG people are not trying to hide who they are; they're trying to become who they are.

You've got my email if you want to chat about this more.

The Warlock

[Sephie]

Originally Posted by Lorekeep

I figure if I was going to respond to liveordie via e-mail, I'd post it here. Once anything you write is online, it's there forever. Best be the original source than someone else!

First off, Bosch's response went over the line. When you need to use words like mother fucking nigger to make a point, you're not really making a good point. Bosch's banning was a capstone on a history of posts. Not a perma-ban but I'm willing to bet if I went through his 8,000 or whatever posts he had, I wouldn't really find anything that contributes positively to the forum.

Second, the fact I responded in the thread rather than deleting it outright should give you an idea that I view the post to be in the right forum.

Third, if you've been paying attention, I'm a big fan of shining a light on people who are being deceptive. It's all well and good until you put yourself out there and give people a false impression as to what you are. If you're a transgendered person, I'm totally cool with that. But telling someone you're a man or a woman, especially when offering services, gives an indication that you've ALWAYS been a man or a woman, and when people find out otherwise, the reaction tends to be much more violent and aggressive than if you had just been upfront about it.

If Eve is transgendered, she's being deceptive, even if the reality of her current situation is true to her and those around her, because she knows if she tells the truth, which matters to some people, and the fact that it matters should not be discriminated against... if she tells the truth, it'll hurt her business. She won't be able to make as much money. So she glosses over details that would be extremely important to potential customers and fans.

She knows it's a societal perception that calling herself a woman is a more acceptable label than the more accurate one.

I don't want to hear "RAH RAH RAH LOREKEEP'S A BIGOT!" I'm being more open minded about it than anyone who says we should accept Eve as a woman. I do; but when we reach the borders of sexuality and attraction, I want to have faith that the feelings I have are genuine. I am NOT attracted to women who were once men, despite an obvious attraction to women in men's clothes!

We can go into the psychology of this as you guys try to prove me wrong, or we can be open-minded, accept my views, and move on... as we should with most reasonable, non-confrontational viewpoints. (Fascism, for instance, is a confrontational viewpoint. Prefering Asians is a non-confrontational one.)

Some people like Eve regardless of her past. Great! But keep in mind... they probably have the truth of the situation before coming to that state.

Would the TG stories count

[Racerx135]

Well like I said before I think she is hot. I will most likely be ordering another clip. I really could care less about her gender history as it works for me. She really looks hot next to the short guys and gals.

[CK01]

Originally Posted by Sour Oblivion

What really floors me is that the publication "Zoo" didn't check out this person's background before putting him in a bikini, taking pictures of him and calling him the world's tallest model.

Was going to skip this entirely, but couldn't help but LOL at this, Zoo is $2.95Aus ($1.50US) weekly soft-core skin/comedy mag, its not quality journalism.

[qzar9999]

That was very well said, Lore. It does matter to some people, and honesty with customers is important when you're selling something.

[OhZone]

OHMY!

Lorekeep, I want to thank you for clarifying your position on this. I see your points and I didn't know the kind of inflammatory language Bosch aka Persephone had used. I have to admit I like Bosch. Even though he's troubled (who isn't?), he's funny and creative and thought provoking. But you're right, over the top is over the top. I also see his point of view too. There is a strong feeling of nastiness against transgendered here even with so many TG fans and real TG people. I would think we should all be pretty tolerant considering our fetishes. But again over the top is over the top and we also have a right to be warned if someone is misleading us.

Anyways, sometimes, you just have to bite your tongue or your typing fingers. And it's only a month! People go crazy wondering what happens when an old bud gets the banhammer.

[Jecilyn]

Lorekeep: but when we reach the borders of sexuality and attraction, I want to have faith that the feelings I have are genuine. I am NOT attracted to women who were once men

I'm not one to try and pour fuel on the fire...however....

Your comment above really doesn't do the rest of your comment justice. To my reading, it totally dispels your assertion that you are not a bigot. (and I'm not accusing you of it, just that your wording doesn't support it)

It sounds like you're actually saying you don't _want_ to be attracted to a woman who used to be a man? Feelings Genuine? It sounds like you mean you want to sure the target of your feelings are 'genuine' rather than the feelings themselves.

If you met someone in a bar and found them attractive and wanted to talk to them, would you expect the first thing out of their mouth to be "Before we continue, actually I'm a trans-woman?"

This goes into a much greater area than the classic 'It's a trap' that gets bandied about so much.

Trans individuals almost always suffer a great deal of rejection and discrimination simply by being who they are....when they finally are able to achieve a measure of peace with themselves and are able to be who they truly are, should we have the right to demand they tell us their history just so we can feel better/safer/more secure about our sexuality...and in doing so, extending that rejection and discrimination?

I understand why some people react the way they do....worrying that by being attracted to someone whose genetics may have the same chromosome pattern as they themselves have....that this somehow makes them gay...

And yet, with the numerous murders and maiming of those individuals who are open about their past... are we surprised when those same individuals want to keep their past secret and present as the person they are now?

It's a very convoluted issue....and antagonistic postings don't help anyone....no matter how passionate we may be about an issue. While I support 100% HOB's personal journey and the difficulty she faces, I do not support the way in which she lashed out....no matter how understandable it might be under the circumstances.

Likewise, the person who began this thread has a right to his/her opinion, but not to avoid the repercussions (read: responses) of voicing that opinion....loudly, and to people who make up the demographic he/she is denigrating.

[LK]

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

I'm not one to try and pour fuel on the fire...however....

No worries. One must have a thick skin to discuss sensitive material!

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

Your comment above really doesn't do the rest of your comment justice. To my reading, it totally dispels your assertion that you are not a bigot. (and I'm not accusing you of it, just that your wording doesn't support it)

It sounds like you're actually saying you don't _want_ to be attracted to a woman who used to be a man? Feelings Genuine? It sounds like you mean you want to sure the target of your feelings are 'genuine' rather than the feelings themselves.

I hate being lied to. I hate it. Telling me you're a woman places in my mind a different history than what I have come to expect from other women.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

If you met someone in a bar and found them attractive and wanted to talk to them, would you expect the first thing out of their mouth to be "Before we continue, actually I'm a trans-woman?"

No, but if you're wanting to get into specifics, reactions will vary based upon the scenario. A woman who was once a man in a bar seeking men is likely also taking advantage of alcohol, the setting, and many other factors to hide the fact she's transgendered. She doesn't want to be rejected or discriminated, yes, but in order to do that, she has to hide who she really is. It's a deception much the same way make-up, heels, etc. are used to hide a person's true appearance, but on a much, much deeper level.

It might not be important at the time, but the consequences of that truth coming out later could be something out of a romance novel to a police report on a hate crime depending on who the patsy was that hooked up with her. The point is: what will happen can vary and the possibility for something extremely negative exists because of how she represented herself and what she actually was.

I view Eve putting it out there that she's a mistress just like any other and is giving sessions to be a deception I don't support. Actually, it really sucked to find out she was doing "sessions" after she achieved popularity through Zoo and that she was touring the country before it came out she was a dude once. But that's just me, and there's no harm in that.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

This goes into a much greater area than the classic 'It's a trap' that gets bandied about so much.

Trans individuals almost always suffer a great deal of rejection and discrimination simply by being who they are....when they finally are able to achieve a measure of peace with themselves and are able to be who they truly are, should we have the right to demand they tell us their history just so we can feel better/safer/more secure about our sexuality...and in doing so, extending that rejection and discrimination?

If they get upset by being rejected because someone finds out who they really are, then they need to grow a thicker skin. It also depends on the level of rejection, which is something key that needs to be specified in this discussion. There's a major difference between rejecting with hate and rejecting with indifference.

Discrimination... that's a sad condition of the human state, and one I'm not immune to. But unless it affects me personally, I'm pretty open-minded. You can do WHATEVER you want, as long as it doesn't impact whatever I want to do, and vice versa! And if we are acceptive / tolerant / whatever keyword of the day is that's right, then things can actually be peachy and we can live in peace.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

I understand why some people react the way they do....worrying that by being attracted to someone whose genetics may have the same chromosome pattern as they themselves have....that this somehow makes them gay...

Not calling transgendered people this, but let me drive a point home here: dress up a piece of shit well enough and it can look delicious. Does that mean you will eventually learn to enjoy eating shit? It's an extreme example, and I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Apperances are deceiving, and people do this all the time to hide the truth and manipulate you into thinking the way they want you to.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

And yet, with the numerous murders and maiming of those individuals who are open about their past... are we surprised when those same individuals want to keep their past secret and present as the person they are now?

No. I'm not surprised. But they shouldn't be surprised when the truth does come out. People suck. That's why there are murders and maimings.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

It's a very convoluted issue....and antagonistic postings don't help anyone....no matter how passionate we may be about an issue. While I support 100% HOB's personal journey and the difficulty she faces, I do not support the way in which she lashed out....no matter how understandable it might be under the circumstances.

I actually didn't know HOB was transgendered, and it didn't really matter. What mattered was the nature of his/her post.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

Likewise, the person who began this thread has a right to his/her opinion, but not to avoid the repercussions (read: responses) of voicing that opinion....loudly, and to people who make up the demographic he/she is denigrating.

Mmm. Again, if you have to use something like Nigger to make a point, you aren't making your point. Be like you and Rachel; intelligent, not reaction-based. Keith Olbermann didn't stand out with his Special Comments because he was ranting and raving at the television. He was eloquent, insightful, and most importantly, selective of when he brought about these segments to provide the most effectiveness (he fought his producers' desires to have these segments more often due to the attention and ratings they got from it).