Evil conversion Disscusion Thread

[no-name]

Originally Posted by Mitchell

The problem with becomming evil as part of a greater cause, is that it ALWAYS backfires in the end.

How does that happen?
A character playing in the shadows in the name of justice usually succeeds in their objective...regardless of what befalls them.

In any case I thought about another character that may not have been converted, but she has played on both sides of the battlefield:
Karla the Grey Witch from "The Record of Lodoss" series.
She is the last survivor of a ancient race that was wiped out 500 years ago.
In order to prevent such a tragedy from happening again, she sealed her soul into a circlet, possessing anyone who wears it.
Long story short, she fights simply to preserve the world of Lodoss. To that end, she has manipulated the governing nations into waging countless wars against each other. This would keep one side from gaining more power than the other, thus maintaining balance in Lodoss.
As long as she continued to exist, true peace within the land could never be achieved.

Why bring this up? Because she was one of the "Six Heroes" in a prologue story prior to the main story arc.

I guess now is a good time to bring this up:
What is it that truly defines a person as being "evil"?
In the case of this thread, can it be labeled in different classes?
What some people may define certain things as evil, some of these "evils" are considered to be necessary in the world (like "Death").
.....
Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this....
That, or my lack of sleep is finally getting to me....

[no-name]

Has anyone noticed how the corrupt dress?
They're either classy, intimidating, or scantily clad. The last one is probably the most seen.
Personally, I prefer seeing the "classy" evil corruption like Wicked/Black Lady from the SM series.

[Mitchell]

Counter-Example: The Operative, from Serenity. (If you haven't seen it, see it. If you have, you know what I'm talking about.)

Also, what the heck happens to Karla in the end? She sounds like the kind of person the heroes would stop...and stopping her prevents her from maintaining the balance.

See the Trope of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ecessarilyEvil

Note that you're right in many cases, but wrong in many. It, generally, depends on how much they fall under REALLY evil.

[Ilparazzo]

Originally Posted by Mitchell

Counter-Example: The Operative, from Serenity. (If you haven't seen it, see it. If you have, you know what I'm talking about.)

Also, what the heck happens to Karla in the end? She sounds like the kind of person the heroes would stop...and stopping her prevents her from maintaining the balance.

If memory serves me right, she/he manages to escape(cant go into details withouth spoiling anything)
Attached picture is how she looks like.

[CNash]

Originally Posted by Mitchell

Counter-Example: The Operative, from Serenity. (If you haven't seen it, see it. If you have, you know what I'm talking about.)

I'd say The Operative looks plenty intimidating. It's not necessarily his style of clothing (generic black-ops agent), but more his demeanour.

[rick404]

I always found the concept of 'evil being proportionate to breast size' entertaining.

As far as dress goes: Classical good are typically modest, while scantily clad or "loose" woman are often associated with wicked or evil ways.

Woman who use aggressively use their sexuality in obvious means can be seen as form of intimation. Good and heroic characters tend not to intimidate.

With stuff like Sailor Moon you are dealing with young girls fighting mature women adversaries so you have innocence as the defining good. Sexual maturity is the end slayer of innocence and is very often the adversary in magical girl style media.

Originally Posted by no-name

Has anyone noticed how the corrupt dress?
They're either classy, intimidating, or scantily clad. The last one is probably the most seen.
Personally, I prefer seeing the "classy" evil corruption like Wicked/Black Lady from the SM series.

"The greatest eval is that which hides behind the mask of righteousness."
Good quote althow I can't remember ware I herd it.

It seems while the scantaly clad eval tends to be more active physicaly it is the classy eval that is more often responsible for the plot. My favorite example of this would be Lust and Dante of Fullmetal Alchemist (Althow I belive that Lust manages to be sexy and classy at the same time) Lust pefers to be more hands on allthow not as much as some of the other Homunculi. While Dante raley even lifts a finger untill the very end manipulateing an entire goverment and killing nearly an entire population of people in the process just to prolong her own life a few more years.

Originally Posted by no-name

I guess now is a good time to bring this up:
What is it that truly defines a person as being "evil"?
In the case of this thread, can it be labeled in different classes?
What some people may define certain things as evil, some of these "evils" are considered to be necessary in the world (like "Death").
.....
Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this....
That, or my lack of sleep is finally getting to me....

NO your right on what is eval is very hard to quantify. In fact It may very well be impossable, their are many gray arias, it's not allways black and white but to quallify as a transformation I belave that their mut be a signifacant change in that shade.

However It is possable to list examples of what is eval. And what is gray as in the formentioned cases of Dante and Lust from Fullmetal Alchemist.
Sence Dante is willing to destrow an entire civalization for no more gaine then a few more yeas for herself she can be considered without a doubt eval while Lust who follows Dante's oders only dose so in hopes of gaining her humanity and become normal makes it qustionable as to wather or not she is truley eval. Had she met Ed and Al (or Hohenheim) first she may have taken a completly diffrent path.

And as for what evals could be considered necessary I off this ,
Death Note, any one hao has watched it knows full well that what one could consider necessary, can differ grately from person to person.

[no-name]

Originally Posted by Mitchell

Counter-Example: The Operative, from Serenity. (If you haven't seen it, see it. If you have, you know what I'm talking about.)

Also, what the heck happens to Karla in the end? She sounds like the kind of person the heroes would stop...and stopping her prevents her from maintaining the balance.

See the Trope of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ecessarilyEvil

Note that you're right in many cases, but wrong in many. It, generally, depends on how much they fall under REALLY evil.

Serenity, huh? I'll look it up.
Karla's fate varies depending on the media. I haven't read the manga to the second series of Lodoss, but I have watched both the OVA and the TV series:
OVA-
Through her manipulation, Karla (via Woodchuck) successfully maintain balance throughout Lodoss. She is still very much alive and active near the end. What happens after that remains a mystery.

TV Series-
The TV series retcons the OVA ending, as Kardis' ressurrection has not yet occurred at the begining of the series. Karla does appear briefly possessing Woodchuck's body, but returns much later in the series with another body.
As the heroes began to gain the upper-hand in the war against Marmo, Kardis decides to aid Wagnard in ressurrecting Kardis to preserve balance in Lodoss.
(You'll have to see the TV series to understand her logic behind this.)
In the final episodes, Parn (the main character of the OVA and the first half of the TV series) manages to remove the circlet from her forehead, releasing the victim from Karla's control.
It is uncertain what became of Karla after this, but after the events seen here, it's likely that she has been sealed away someplace.
(I have a feeling that destroying the circlet is next to impossible.)

[krannomaruos]

Hey all, this is my First Post here.

Thoughts on EC TF's

The first thing that I remember that got me into this theme was the 'dark Lilly' part of Legend.
I always wished there'd been more of a process, and more time for her to react to it at the end.

I generally envision a scene where a good girl is transformed (made to transform) into something that embodies all that she'd ever been taught was "bad". She fights the whole way.
She 'sees' the 'darker nature' filling her body and mind, almost like an invading force.
In the end, once it's taken over, there is still a portion of her mind that is the 'good girl', and this portion is left to watch helplessly as she commits horrible acts on her friends etc...
I especially picture a later scene where she has caught two girls whom she knows and makes one watch while the other is transformed, before going through it herself.

Elegant vs. Skimpy:

I still picture the end product looking something like dark Lilly; Gothic but elegant.
Black lips, longer black nails (not really long though), maybe subtle fangs (as in the Anne Rice movies ). Dress would start off conservative, blouse etc., that would probably be partly torn off during the process. The end result would put on something like a black evening dress, or something simpler but similar.

The process itself:

Not sure what causes it. Probably an amorphous 'demon' that becomes attracted to her, perhaps for all the things she's denied herself. I've pictured her having nightmares; She's feeling terrified wandering down a dark hallway in her house/apt. then being drawn to a mirror, perhaps in the bathroom, and when she turns on the light, she startles awake and terrified or crying.
This goes on for a month, then one night (full/new moon? ) something hits her, and minutes later she falls to her knees, heart racing, etc.. Heavy feelings of deja-vu relating to her dreams hit her, like she's fallen into another nightmare.
Startled to find her nails are longer (long nails to her = evil/slutty). Yeah, a little 'catwoman from channel six' here.
Visions of what she'll soon be doing rush her mind...
At some point later in the process, she manages to get herself to a mirror, and sees her darker visage, and sobs at how her body and mind are betraying her...

You can get the rest.

Just some ideas from one angle on the issue.

Youv'e put a lot of thought into that. Fill in the gaps a little more and you could have a good story their.

[krannomaruos]

Originally Posted by Bee82

Youv'e put a lot of thought into that. Fill in the gaps a little more and you could have a good story their.

heh. Thanks.
I've tried a few times to write it. Each time, I wind up either putting too much into the back story (because I hate 'spontaneous tf' with no trigger), or I get too detailed in the TF itself that I wind up writing myself into a "where can I take this now" corner.

I used to have the same trouble when I was drawing; I could do figures, or backgrounds, but almost never both at the same time.

Maybe I'll find the balance sometime soon and crank the story out.