Cautionary message about Amazon Eve

[Sephie]

Originally Posted by Lorekeep

I figure if I was going to respond to liveordie via e-mail, I'd post it here. Once anything you write is online, it's there forever. Best be the original source than someone else!

First off, Bosch's response went over the line. When you need to use words like mother fucking nigger to make a point, you're not really making a good point. Bosch's banning was a capstone on a history of posts. Not a perma-ban but I'm willing to bet if I went through his 8,000 or whatever posts he had, I wouldn't really find anything that contributes positively to the forum.

Second, the fact I responded in the thread rather than deleting it outright should give you an idea that I view the post to be in the right forum.

Third, if you've been paying attention, I'm a big fan of shining a light on people who are being deceptive. It's all well and good until you put yourself out there and give people a false impression as to what you are. If you're a transgendered person, I'm totally cool with that. But telling someone you're a man or a woman, especially when offering services, gives an indication that you've ALWAYS been a man or a woman, and when people find out otherwise, the reaction tends to be much more violent and aggressive than if you had just been upfront about it.

If Eve is transgendered, she's being deceptive, even if the reality of her current situation is true to her and those around her, because she knows if she tells the truth, which matters to some people, and the fact that it matters should not be discriminated against... if she tells the truth, it'll hurt her business. She won't be able to make as much money. So she glosses over details that would be extremely important to potential customers and fans.

She knows it's a societal perception that calling herself a woman is a more acceptable label than the more accurate one.

I don't want to hear "RAH RAH RAH LOREKEEP'S A BIGOT!" I'm being more open minded about it than anyone who says we should accept Eve as a woman. I do; but when we reach the borders of sexuality and attraction, I want to have faith that the feelings I have are genuine. I am NOT attracted to women who were once men, despite an obvious attraction to women in men's clothes!

We can go into the psychology of this as you guys try to prove me wrong, or we can be open-minded, accept my views, and move on... as we should with most reasonable, non-confrontational viewpoints. (Fascism, for instance, is a confrontational viewpoint. Prefering Asians is a non-confrontational one.)

Some people like Eve regardless of her past. Great! But keep in mind... they probably have the truth of the situation before coming to that state.

Would the TG stories count

[Rachel Bronwyn]

This is positively obscene.

That said, deceit is deceit. You can argue semantics until you're blue in the face, but you're still committing a lie of omission if you're TG and don't make that perfectly clear when you're advertising yourself as an object of sexual desire to and <bells and sirens to denote importance> making money off of the dirty thoughts of heterosexual men.

You?re not entitled to know a detail as personal as whether someone is transgendered. Not releasing such a fact isn?t a lie as IT?S NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS. None of her work is transgendered-themed. It is an irrelevant fact. It does not matter if the people you make money off of are men who would be uncomfortable knowing you have a Y chromosome. By all accounts, this person is fulfilling the desire their heterosexual male customers seek.

Just like it's not homosexual for a straight man to be attracted to a TG female, it is not always homophobia to not be attracted to a TG female. For many, it's a matter of personal preference. You need to be able to separate disinterest from disgust, fear and/or hatred.

Homophobia doesn?t always manifest as ?disgust, fear and/or hatred.?

The bottom line is if you enjoy a jiggle video or porn thoroughly due to the chick in it who you find attractive by all accounts, those feelings are genuine. If finding out they have a Y chromosome overrides all those feelings, it?s not a matter of taste as that chromosome would in absolutely no way affect either person in the potential relationship. It?s a matter of discomfort brought on my latent homophobia. It does not change their appearance or personality. It?s completely irrelevant yet it?s being trotted out as an extremely important factor. That?s no different than me discriminating against brunettes who have a recessive red head gene. It does not affect their appearance nor does it affect who they are. But, ewww, they have an icky gene!

It?s only important that this person identify as a transgendered female because after wanking to her, some of the guys who find out she?d biologically male might feel icky due to latent homophobia. Tough shit. It is no one?s job to pander to anyone else?s homophobia. What?s being asked of this person is that she indulge the irrational biases of her customers. Bullshit. You?re not entitled to know personal details about this person. If you feel icky later, it?s entirely due to your homophobia and is your responsibility to get over.

[qzar9999]

You know what would be great, Rachel? If you could avoid stating your opinions as fact. What do you think of the example he gave about breast implants? If they're done extremely well, there's no obvious difference between implants and real ones; any difference would be entirely "under the surface," so to speak. Yet some people would be turned off by it. There's no way you can chalk that one up to homophobia. Much like it's not 100% correct to state that being turned off by a TG female is homophobia.

[Sephie]

For those stating that being transgedered IRL without announcing it is deceitful. 1. It is sometimes suicidal to do so, and 2. From personal experience it is more deceitful to those who are truly attracted to you to be transgendered and keep in the closet.

Explanations:
1. Because I live in Houston, and in a particularly GLBT friendly part of Houston I can transition openly. In much of the United States that can and has gotten people killed. Furthermore those individuals who after transition admit to being transgendered are more likely to be killed by homophobes. Furthermore if you are attracted to someone ho appears to be a woman and you are not in a relationship with them, why do they have to reveal something traumatic and private about their past? If someone is dressed in tennis clothes do they have to announce that not only are they not a professional tennis player, but they cannot even play well as their arm was severely injured in a crash that killed their parents?

2. Personal story time: My ex dumped me for pretending to be a guy. Genetically I am male, but she felt like I was lying to her.

Long story short: Looks like a girl, thinks like a girl, talks like a girl, acts like a girl, it's a girl.

[Clickme]

That?s no different than me discriminating against brunettes who have a recessive red head gene. It does not affect their appearance nor does it affect who they are. But, ewww, they have an icky gene!

I think Rachel makes a really good point here.

[Sephie]

For some reason the second page of this thread seems to be down. Not the first or last, I just can't view the second.

[Clickme]

*shrugs* Maybe we broke it by putting too many personal views in the pages of a fetish forum? lol

[Sephie]

: A better apology:
Sorry for the cursing. As explained in the now removed post I had been dealing with Bureaucracy all week and though I don't normally curse, I just sorta exploded. I still feel that the OP is insensitive, immoral, and bigoted, but I cannot advocate censorship for him as I am opposed to all censorship save cases where peoples life are put at risk. If contact info for eve is given anywhere I would call for the removal of the OP as individuals who are perceived to be TG whether or not they are tend to have a much higher than normal number of murders (a reason most of us keep in the closet unless we are somewhere safe).

[Rachel Bronwyn]

Originally Posted by Herr Onymous-Bosch

From personal experience it is more deceitful to those who are truly attracted to you to be transgendered and keep in the closet.

Real life attraction and potential relationships are profoundly different than the business transaction that is purchasing and beating off to tittilating videos.

I completely agree though. In a perfect world, being transgendered would play no role whatsoever in relationships. Discimination runs deep in our society though. If the person you're dealing with is shallow and bolts soon as "trans" comes out of your mouth, well, you're better off without them and it would have blown up soon as they found out anyways. There will be some people who run to the hills after finding out the lady they're courting was raped and is therefore impure. Some people can't tolerate having a partner whose parents are gay. It's sad and profoundly shallow but it's life.

Buying and indulging in videos featuring skantily clad ladies in arousing scenarios in not real life.

[100Proof]

You make some good points, Rachel, but it's clear we disagree fundamentally in a couple of key ways.

Originally Posted by Rachel Bronwyn

That’s no different than me discriminating against brunettes who have a recessive red head gene. It does not affect their appearance nor does it affect who they are. But, ewww, they have an icky gene!

No, that's not the same. If the person had red hair for the first 18-25 years of their life and then had their hair surgically altered to be brown, then yes, I'd say it was the same. The red hair will never come back and there's nothing wrong with that person calling themselves a brunette, but not admitting that you were once a redhead is a lie of omission. A relatively unimportant one, but a lie nonetheless.

It’s only important that this person identify as a transgendered female because after wanking to her, some of the guys who find out she’d biologically male might feel icky due to latent homophobia. Tough shit. It is no one’s job to pander to anyone else’s homophobia. What’s being asked of this person is that she indulge the irrational biases of her customers. Bullshit. You’re not entitled to know personal details about this person. If you feel icky later, it’s entirely due to your homophobia and is your responsibility to get over.

People SHOULD get over their biases. But this involves money changing hands. The fact of the matter is that a lie of omission occurs and the people buying the product might not be getting what they asked for. Should they "get over it"? Probably. And perhaps in time people will. But when you're dealing with a sale of services rendered (particularly of this nature), their biases are precisely what causes them to make said purchase in the first place.

I'm generally pretty good with analogies, but I'm coming up pretty empty here. How about this one? When I look to buy a used car, I always make sure to ask for a vehicle history report to make sure the car has never been in a major accident. The car may be completely rebuilt, look fine, run perfectly well, and do everything I need it to do for years. But I will never buy a car that's been in a major accident. Am I missing out by having that somewhat irrational personal rule? Probably. But if someone sold me a car without telling me that, that's a big no no.

Judging from your tone, I can tell you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Which is fine. Progress is only made through civil discussion. Here is where I believe we differ:

You feel that a TG woman is exactly the same as a woman from birth post-surgery, should be treated as one, and should have the option to not self-identify in every conceivable situation: what the male apes don't know won't hurt them and they're the ones with the problem anyway.

Edit: It would appear we only disagree on one of these.

I feel that a TG woman is exactly the same as a woman from birth post-surgery, should be treated as one, and should have the option to not self-identify in all situations save for two: where romantic love is involved with another person (as trust and honesty are the foundation of any romantic relationship) and where money is being exchanged under the pretense of sexual services rendered (because of the basic rules of the bartering system re: false advertising).

Feel free to have the last word...

[mercury01]

Originally Posted by Herr Onymous-Bosch

Furthermore if you are attracted to someone ho appears to be a woman and you are not in a relationship with them, why do they have to reveal something traumatic and private about their past?

This. What's under her skirt is not your business.

[Rachel Bronwyn]

What is or isn't under her skirt is not your business.

Originally Posted by 100Proof

Feel free to have the last word...

I will.

No, that's not the same. If the person had red hair for the first 18-25 years of their life and then had their hair surgically altered to be brown, then yes, I'd say it was the same. The red hair will never come back and there's nothing wrong with that person calling themselves a brunette, but not admitting that you were once a redhead is a lie of omission. A relatively unimportant one, but a lie nonetheless.

Bullshit. You're not entitled to know whether someone used to be a redhead nor are you entitled to know whether someone has a Y chromosome or used to have male genitals. It's none of your business, even if you're buying their product. so long as it plays no role whatsoever in their product. If their Y chromosome played a role in the product you purchased, it would be pertinent and relevant. It's not. You're demanding someone pander to others' homophobia by ensuring the customer doesn't accidentally enjoy their work. Heaven forbid men having to challenge their own homophobia! There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that someone should have to reveal a personal detail about their life that plays absolutely no role in their product. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THAT INFORMATION. If you were, it would be a lie. It's not.

People SHOULD get over their biases. But this involves money changing hands. The fact of the matter is that a lie of omission occurs and the people buying the product might not be getting what they asked for.

The customer is getting exactly what they ask for. It's only after the user finds out the person they just beat off to is biologically male that their homophobia kicks in. That homophobia is not the purveryor's problem.

Should they "get over it"? Probably. And perhaps in time people will. But when you're dealing with a sale of services rendered (particularly of this nature), their biases are precisely what causes them to make said purchase in the first place.

No, their preferences are precisely what cause them to make said purchase, all of which are fulfilled by the product. The homophobia is the customer's problem. Putting the onus on the purveryor is absurd.

I'm generally pretty good with analogies, but I'm coming up pretty empty here. How about this one? When I look to buy a used car, I always make sure to ask for a vehicle history report to make sure the car has never been in a major accident. The car may be completely rebuilt, look fine, run perfectly well, and do everything I need it to do for years. But I will never buy a car that's been in a major accident. Am I missing out by having that somewhat irrational personal rule? Probably. But if someone sold me a car without telling me that, that's a big no no.

If it's completely irrevelvant, be it someone's biological state or the accident a car has been in that in no way negatively affects it, it's none of your business and is not lying. You're not entitled to irrelevant information simply to avoid challenging your biases. It's only false advertising if what's left unsaid can/will have a negative affect on the buyer later.

The comparison of transgendered people to damaged goods is pretty revolting, by the way.

Judging from your tone, I can tell you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Which is fine. Progress is only made through civil discussion.

That was a pretty shitty thing to say. I've been profoundly reasonable and civil. I'm not going to act as though you're right though.

Here is where I believe we differ:

You feel that a TG woman is exactly the same as a woman from birth post-surgery, should be treated as one, and should have the option to not self-identify in every conceivable situation: what the male apes don't know won't hurt them and they're the ones with the problem anyway.

Not really but sort of. I've repeatedly said partners are entitled to know if someone is transgendered and that it's in the best interest of the transgendered person to be open about it when it comes to intimate relationships.

Edit: It would appear we only disagree on one of these.

I feel that a TG woman is exactly the same as a woman from birth post-surgery, should be treated as one, and should have the option to not self-identify in all situations save for two: where romantic love is involved with another person (as trust and honesty are the foundation of any romantic relationship) and where money is being exchanged under the pretense of sexual services rendered (because of the basic rules of the bartering system re: false advertising).

This entire premise is incorrect as advertising one's self as a woman when one is a woman and the irrelevent fact they carry a Y chromosome plays no role whatsoever in the product is not false advertising. This person is providing exactly the service the buyers seek.