Bloomin Faeries gone?

[PoisonElf]

These conversations are always good for letting me know who to never ever work with.

$500 total for a single page a week split between two people is "steep"?

Get out of here.

[vincent_richter]

I think Qzar expressed himself poorly. I don't think it's steep in the traditional sense, but it is enough to where it'd be nice to see some transparency regarding how that money is spent. I've never understood the whole "it's my money, I'll do what I want" angle when it comes to running a business that expects significant investment.

[qzar9999]

I mean, maybe I could've said it better, I guess? But yes, it would be nice to know *why* it's $500. Transparency would be great since they're asking for that kind of investment.

Elf, I'm curious to know how much you think a single four-panel comic strip I is worth, if you don't think $500 is too much. I know that nearly any artist we work with for the Fan sites would do a single four-panel page for less than that.

I mean, if it were $500 a *month* for weekly strips, that would make sense. Hell, that would probably be too low. But $500 per strip?

[PoisonElf]

Originally Posted by vincent_richter

I think Qzar expressed himself poorly. I don't think it's steep in the traditional sense, but it is enough to where it'd be nice to see some transparency regarding how that money is spent. I've never understood the whole "it's my money, I'll do what I want" angle when it comes to running a business that expects significant investment.

I think they expressed themselves crystal clear. It's very obvious how they feel about the worth of art and the artists.

But for the sake of argument...

Indiegogo takes 5% off the top, btw, plus CC processing fees per transaction. So they're out $25-$50 at the start.

So $475 (being generous) divided by two (assuming), minus say 15-20% for taxes give or take depending on where they live. Minus any additional web hosting expenses for Jacyee.

The artist would walk away with maybe around $190 for pencils, inks, letters and colors of a one page strip. Barely close to industry standard for just pencils at any company worth their weight.

So, say they make enough to do a whole month! Wow, they made around $650-$800 each.

Hope they both have second and third jobs.

[PoisonElf]

Originally Posted by qzar9999

I mean, maybe I could've said it better, I guess? But yes, it would be nice to know *why* it's $500. Transparency would be great since they're asking for that kind of investment.

Elf, I'm curious to know how much you think a single four-panel comic strip I is worth, if you don't think $500 is too much. I know that nearly any artist we work with for the Fan sites would do a single four-panel page for less than that.

I mean, if it were $500 a *month* for weekly strips, that would make sense. Hell, that would probably be too low. But $500 per strip?

Why all this talk of "transparency"?
The indie go-go tells you what the money is going to.
"Each comic would cost about $500 each—some for the artist (Wondollar) what's left to me to help pay the hosting fees (and my bills)."
How is that unreasonable? Do you need to see an itemized list and their bank statement to justify your amazing $2 contribution?

See my previous post on a rough generous guestimated breakdown of the money.

I'd pay the artist whatever their asking price is. And if it was too high for the budget I had set out, I'd try to meet them most of the way by laying out a decent page rate and make up the rest in % of property ownership, sales, comps or whatever else.

I'd also be realistic about what the project is, who the intended audience would be, and how much that would potentially bring in.
I'm not going to try to hire Alex Ross to draw breast expansion.


Also: Yes, I'm aware how much they pay the artists at those Fan sites. That's why I keep turning them down and they have to rely on the revolving door of toe dippers or same handful of artists willing to work so hard for so little.

[qzar9999]

Originally Posted by PoisonElf

I think they expressed themselves crystal clear. It's very obvious how they feel about the worth of art and the artists.

But for the sake of argument...

Indiegogo takes 5% off the top, btw, plus CC processing fees per transaction. So they're out $25-$50 at the start.

So $475 (being generous) divided by two (assuming), minus say 15-20% for taxes give or take depending on where they live. Minus any additional web hosting expenses for Jacyee.

The artist would walk away with maybe around $190 for pencils, inks, letters and colors of a one page strip. Barely close to industry standard for just pencils at any company worth their weight.

So, say they make enough to do a whole month! Wow, they made around $650-$800 each.

Hope they both have second and third jobs.

In my experience, the artist tends to get quite a bit more than the writer. I write comics professionally and I wouldn't expect to be paid anywhere near $190 for writing four panels.

Also, if they're trying to make a LIVING off of this, they'd wanna be doing more than four strips a month. Even $2k a month isn't that much, especially if it goes between two people.

But it's not BF fans' job to support them entirely, or subsidize their whole cost of living. People are free to spend their money however they choose - but $500, in my professional opinion, is too much for a single four-panel strip.

[thelurker]

Let me frame the question in a slightly different light:
Is $2 too much for a single page comic?

Because if it isn't, why is the fact that many people are willing to pay that amount (or more) a problem?

[PoisonElf]

Originally Posted by qzar9999

In my experience, the artist tends to get quite a bit more than the writer. I write comics professionally and I wouldn't expect to be paid anywhere near $190 for writing four panels.

Also, if they're trying to make a LIVING off of this, they'd wanna be doing more than four strips a month. Even $2k a month isn't that much, especially if it goes between two people.

But it's not BF fans' job to support them entirely, or subsidize their whole cost of living. People are free to spend their money however they choose - but $500, in my professional opinion, is too much for a single four-panel strip.

The artist should.

The artist spends substantially more time working on their part than the writer does writing it.
However, Jacyee is also the owner of Bloomin'. He's the marketer, he's the webhost, he's the editor and the guy handling all the indie-go-go stuff.
I'd say that's worth quite a bit considering the amount of work that takes to pull off by yourself.

Anyone who has done crowd funding can tell you that it's like having another full time job.

It's the BF fans' job to support the comic if they want it to continue. In order for it to continue Jacyee has calculated what looks like to be the bare minimum of costs for he and the artist to justify their time and expense to do it.
If you don't like it, don't throw in your $2, obviously.

But I'd hardly call it your place, professional or not, to imply that they're trying to get away with something or asking too much simply because you don't agree with the price.

[qzar9999]

Whatever, dude. I think it's too much, you don't. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

People can do what they want with their own money.

[Blake Isaac Gordon]

I was about to comment on this thread earlier this morning, and goodness me, I'm glad I waited...

Originally Posted by PoisonElf

These conversations are always good for letting me know who to never ever work with.

Oh SNAP!

Originally Posted by qzar9999

Whatever, dude. I think it's too much, you don't. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

People can do what they want with their own money.

And it looks like they are sending it over to BF Indiegogo site, last I checked they were close to the 1000 mark.

Originally Posted by qzar9999

...

Elf, I'm curious to know how much you think a single four-panel comic strip I is worth, if you don't think $500 is too much. I know that nearly any artist we work with for the Fan sites would do a single four-panel page for less than that.

Gotta be straight up- you get what you pay for.

Originally Posted by PoisonElf

Why all this talk of "transparency"?
The indie go-go tells you what the money is going to.
"Each comic would cost about $500 each—some for the artist (Wondollar) what's left to me to help pay the hosting fees (and my bills)." How is that unreasonable? Do you need to see an itemized list and their bank statement to justify your amazing $2 contribution?

I'd pay the artist whatever their asking price is. And if it was too high for the budget I had set out, I'd try to meet them most of the way by laying out a decent page rate and make up the rest in % of property ownership, sales, comps or whatever else.

I'd also be realistic about what the project is, who the intended audience would be, and how much that would potentially bring in. I'm not going to try to hire Alex Ross to draw breast expansion.

Alex Ross on a BE comic that's too damn funny. And I'm going to have to agree with Poison Elf on this one, what more transparency do you need unless you want to see it to compare with your own business model.

Originally Posted by PoisonElf

Also: Yes, I'm aware how much they pay the artists at those Fan sites. That's why I keep turning them down and they have to rely on the revolving door of toe dippers or same handful of artists willing to work so hard for so little.

God-Damn!




I'm glad Poison Elf has said all that they have said because it sounds legit. I should not anything more, but...

The BF project is in the lowest third of the average comic book budget PER PAGE not per book. I think they might be low-balling it too much for a comic of their caliber. And after looking at BF Indiegogo page the majority of the money came from individuals doing the 20 dollar tier to get the archives of the comic. So to them thumbs up!

As for Qzar9999, I have no clue were the 'frustration' is coming from. BE content of any kind, let alone top-quality content, is getting more and more rare. Nobody cares for this much any more. I would think we would support any of our piers regardless of our perceptions because we all gain enjoyment from the same thing.

[qzar9999]

I'm not at all sure what frustration you're referring to.

I expressed the belief that a four-panel comic strip isn't worth (and shouldn't cost) $500. There's no "frustration" in that, it's just my opinion that it's overpriced - an opinion that happens to be backed up by personal and professional experience, but still just an opinion. Jesus Christ, you'd think I'd pissed in someone's corn flakes.

Also, didn't actually catch that there was an option to pay $20 for the comic archive. I'll gladly chip in for that if the tier is still open, I'll have to check that out later...

[BillPratt]

I thought of sending Poison Elf a link to this thread and then figured that if he cared enough he'd have already commented. Well, looks like he cared.

I sit on the writing side, and depending on how you do it it is either less effort or far less effort than what the artist puts in, depending on how they do it*. The only reason I write this stuff is for fun and the only reason I try to publish it is to see how it turns out. The volume of stuff sitting in my repositories that I've never published and even tried to publish is ridiculous.

What I put in compared to what I make is nothing compared to what I make for similar effort at my day job.

*I have a certain amount of awe for Sal Buscema and Vince Colletta because the rate at which they could illustrate a book. The results were rarely spectacular, but called in at the last moment they hit the mother fucking deadline when no-one else could.