Conservatives Hate Obama More Than They Love America

[kia252]

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

As much as "because I said so"?

Yes, and that's why I would caution you against such tactics in the future.
You see, if you can bring forth analytical and evidentiary support to whittle away your opponent's position until he has no ground left to actually argue while your arguments are left almost completely unassailed, odds are you have reasoned your way to strong argumentative position that you, and others listening, can hold until it is otherwise discounted, even if the opponent bitterly refuses to accept it.

Originally Posted by Daleksec

Joke or not, you pretty much have the right of it.

GIVE us LIBERTY? It is not owned by our Overlords to give or deny. They serve AT OUR PLEASURE and there ARE still fewer of them than there are of us. The mentality of "YAY MY PARTY WON...NOW I CAN SNICKER AT THE OTHER SIDE" is killing us. IF we see THEM as being the source of our liberty, we are SCREWED!

Embrace either party with a "Right Or Wrong" view and you are a SHEEPLE. I will NEVER forgive or forget President Bush (Jr) for the Patriot Act or the Bail outs. NOR will I give President Obama a pass for trying to turn the U.S. into some version of 1984.

I am an equal opportunity loather.

I absolutely agree that this is a terrible problem with the electorate in the U.S. regardless of particular opinion of any given politician.

[OhZone]

OHMY! 1984? As you mention, the Patriot Act happened under Bush! What is 1984ish about what Obama has done? Maybes I missed something?

[DalekSec]

Originally Posted by OhZone

OHMY! 1984? As you mention, the Patriot Act happened under Bush! What is 1984ish about what Obama has done? Maybes I missed something?

You mean aside from offering to control every aspect of a person's life under Tax & Trade and Healthcare?

His little Ministry of Truth that smears anyone with the audacity to ask a tough question.

We have always hated the insurance companies. They have always been the enemy. Big Brother says so, it MUST be true. How much did the insurance companies give to his campaign? Remember when the OIL companies with the most dire threat?

You still see Bush and Obama as separate and distinct. The Media told you to hate Bush, so you did and still do. The Media told you to love Obama and you do. Tell me, for all of Obama’s charm, what did he ever DO before being elected President? DO you know? HOW many days as a Senator? Not YEARS mind you, DAYS. How long as a Prof? How long as a lawyer? Even in the Senate, what grand bills did he push? What great victories can he personally claim? I personally loathe both for what they have done and continue to do to this nation. Mention his thin past and shady friends and you are a NUTTER. A Beck. A Rush.

Read the books 1984 and Animal Farm. Have a look at what we have allowed to happen.

[Rachel Bronwyn]

Originally Posted by DalekSec

The Media told you to hate Bush, so you did and still do. The Media told you to love Obama and you do.

Because it's absolutely impossible anyone, given the available information, could have formed a differing opinion from your own. The only way an individual could have come to support Obama is through bias media coverage and being charmed by his election persona. There is no possibility anyone to whom Obama appeals thinks critically.

Read the books 1984 and Animal Farm. Have a look at what we have allowed to happen.

Being someone who promotes the "legitimacy" of invading Iraq and thinks there's no correlation between CO2 emissions and climate change, this coming from you is comical. If you're going to demonstrate an absolute lack of critical thinking regarding your own beliefs, you don't get to accuse others of the same.

The overuse of words like “socialism” and comparisons between Hitler and Obama demonstrate how poorly Americans understand anything politically alien to them and makes them look even more stupid than they generally are. It’s fucking embarrassing. Take a look around. Lots of nations that are pillars of human development have public healthcare and behave in accordance with the Kyoto Protocol and look fuck-all like Mao’s China. Most don’t even look like fucking Sweden. Insisting Obama’s healthcare reform plan is evidence of him being a socialist makes everyone look retarded.

Godwin’s law doesn’t just speak to the regularity with which comparisons to Hitler and Nazis occur. It demonstrates how extreme arguments such as comparisons to Hitler and Nazis do nothing to further conversation and make people look dumb. The same goes for suggesting Obama is a socialist and wants to turn the United States into the Orwellian world of 1984. The fact there are some commonalities does not equate to one having all the negative elements of the other or one imminently becoming the other.

I have had two shots, one full of hormones, a pelvic and breast exam tonight as well as my blood drawn. My deltoid and ass cheek hurt. My tits are sore. I have no patience for hyperbole right now. I’m drinking copious amounts of beer and eating cheap leftover Halloween chocolate to tame my inner bitch. It obviously isn’t working yet.

EDIT: I fucking give up. I'm moving onto the vibrator. This chocolate and beer shit is doing fuck-all for me.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Yes, and that's why I would caution you against such tactics in the future.
You see, if you can bring forth analytical and evidentiary support to whittle away your opponent's position until he has no ground left to actually argue while your arguments are left almost completely unassailed, odds are you have reasoned your way to strong argumentative position that you, and others listening, can hold until it is otherwise discounted, even if the opponent bitterly refuses to accept it.

"Blah blah blah...I'm a big time winner and now I'm going to entertain you all with a whole paragraph about how great I am!"

I feel I'm going to be sick...

Why does there have to be deceit? Because they disagree with you?

No, because they're not following their oaths as I explained in plain King's English which you continue to blow off so you are in no position to lecture me about closed mindedness. That's just a desperate tactic to discredit me and it's not fooling anyone with a functioning brain.

You don't have to move mountains to convince me of something. I can and have been convinced for far less than that.

If you have a claim to make, then make it. Cut the politico speak, I haven't the slightest interest in that nonsense.

Insisting Obama’s healthcare reform plan is evidence of him being a socialist makes everyone look retarded.

Except the fact that it IS based on socialist ideas. Don't trust the free market, government has to run it!

But what is free market and economy any more than the collective desires of all the people? So when people talk about controlling economy...they're saying the desires of the people need to be controlled...

When you put it like that...suddenly it stops sounding all warm and fuzzy doesn't it?'

As for Obama, check his voting record. He voted in favor of the war in Iraq and went along with just about everything Bush put foreward (I'm pretty sure he voted for the patriot act too though I'm not positive) so for him to claim "change" as being his big platform is just laughable. He's no agent of change. He's just same old same old like all before him. Nothing special whatsoever.

[DalekSec]

While I do DOUBT the correlation between MAN MADE CO2 and AL GORE'S magical mystery tour of self promotion and godly status, you miss my point entirely. Not a shock to me as your mind is made up and no one dare attempt to change it (Ah blind faith. So cute in the young).

I would point to the reporter having his MIC shut off while attempting to ask Pope Gore about the glaring inaccuracies in his little film that he STILL refuses to correct. Oh I know “The SCIENCE IS SETTLED” and those (growing numbers) of scientists who do not agree are all tattooed, inbred, hillbilly, racist, sexist, homophobes who want the Earth to die sad and crying. Sounds rather like when the CHURCH used to excommunicate folks and burn them at the stake in absentia really.

I would point out that the majority (Overwhelming majority ) of the American people (And Congress) were all in favor of the war in Iraq at the start and it was not until our dear Old Stream Media decided to Vietnam the whole thing that opinions began to change. Do the homework and check the figures. Having mindless little dirt bag traitors like Sen. Reid insist “The war is lost” as American troops are in the field should have resulted in his being FLOGGED on live TV by the parent of one of those soldiers. Instead, the Yellow Stream Media smiles and says how enlightened he is.

We can rest easy knowing that folks at MSNBC get a warm feeling up their legs when they merely think about our Dear Leader who must never be questioned. We can embrace loons who call those who oppose them whores and murders. Oh yes, I do think Hope and Change is just lovely, don’t you?

You still fail to show me just what Lord Obama has managed to do beyond give pretty speeches to empty headed sycophants who think money comes from his arse with the waving of his mystical hands. Oh don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a good speech but then I enjoy comedy and fantasy too and Mr. Obama is so good at all of the above. He can even tell us to wait as he plays Hamlet with the lives of American forces in Afghanistan AFTER his hand picked general urges speed.

Oh yes, Dear Leader is such a piece of work. He can both support the public option and oppose it. He can rally for Single Payer and deny it a moment later. He can surround himself with SCUM who openly praise mass murders and brutal thug dictators but, those with faith, religious zealotry like yourself will sing and dance while offering him praise. How nice for you.

Like him or not, and mind you he made GREAT mistakes, President Bush did not quibble his stances for the joy of the Press. He did not vilify and ostracize those members of the Press OR THEIR NETWORKS that went after him with everything they could on a daily basis. Dan Blather anyone?

I, on the other hand, prefer to question ALL SIDES and the moment I am told a question is foolish or out of line, I KNOW for a fact the person saying such is a liar and a coward who is incapable of more than pasting walls of blathering text to cover their basic lack of grasp of a concept. I am no more impressed by filler, name calling and eye rolling than I am by a student who tells me his dog ate his report. THAT, in a nutshell is the difference between us R.B. I question. I listen and I decide for myself what sounds logical and what sounds like a failed ex V.P. trying to make billions on a scam that adjusts to suit the climate. PUN very much intended.

As for your "Inner Bitch", you have my sympathies and I am sorry you had a rough day. Never costs to be considerate and polite after all.

[Rachel Bronwyn]

Socialist elements and ideas in a government do not equate to a socialist government or country just like embracing one socialist idea doesn't make someone a socialist. Lots of people and populations don't subscribe to labels and find value in multiple perspectives.

I'm a huge proponent of postgenderism in order to improve human mental characteristics and capacities. It's an innately transhumanist idea. For the most part, I consider transhumanism utter tripe. With regard to the effects of the social construction of gender on the human species though, I think it works.

[DalekSec]

Wearing a swastika and saying SEIG HEIL does not make one a Nazi I suppose.

NO R.B. Either you have a Free Market or you do not. Either we are a Capitalist society or we are not.

Trying to slip in bits of Socialism while denying it is rather like the rapist who whispers "I am not raping you." in your ear as he bends you over a desk.

[Herr Onymous-Bosch]

Originally Posted by DalekSec

Wearing a swastika and saying SEIG HEIL does not make one a Nazi I suppose.

NO R.B. Either you have a Free Market or you do not. Either we are a Capitalist society or we are not.

Trying to slip in bits of Socialism while denying it is rather like the rapist who whispers "I am not raping you." in your ear as he bends you over a desk.

It is not a binary condition but a sliding scale. Your claim is saying because it is not black it must be wight, when reality it is a really dark grey.

[Lord T Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by Herr Onymous-Bosch

It is not a binary condition but a sliding scale. Your claim is saying because it is not black it must be wight, when reality it is a really dark grey.

But there isn't grey here because the definition of a capitalist free market is very specific. If it doesn't fit the definition, then it doesn't get to claim that status.

Besides, socialism didn't happen overnight. It started with little sprinklings here and there. Do I really have to remind everyone that socialism resulted in shortages, riots and even war?

Socialism had it's chance and failed. Get over it folks.

[DalekSec]

Here here!

Rather like being a "Part time slave".

[kia252]

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

"Blah blah blah...I'm a big time winner and now I'm going to entertain you all with a whole paragraph about how great I am!"

I feel I'm going to be sick...

If you want to interpret it to say that I won the argument, then that says something now, doesn't it? Seriously, I explained how debate ought to work, and if it shows that I have displayed the better argument or "won" then that says a lot.
You're just trying to whine and moan your way out of it because you can't really argue my points, and would rather resort to, unsurprisingly, an ad hominem attack. Sure, I was more than happy to send some smug right back at you when you chuck it at me, but that in no way detracts from the arguments I have made and that you are unable debate them as you want to just want to ignore or dismiss them on no grounds whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

No, because they're not following their oaths as I explained in plain King's English which you continue to blow off so you are in no position to lecture me about closed mindedness. That's just a desperate tactic to discredit me and it's not fooling anyone with a functioning brain.

You don't have to move mountains to convince me of something. I can and have been convinced for far less than that.

If you have a claim to make, then make it. Cut the politico speak, I haven't the slightest interest in that nonsense.

Seems to me "politico speak" is when someone shows that your claim is unfounded so you can disregard it as nonsense rather than try to debate it any further. This is not terribly different from your meaning of "deceitful" being anyone that is genuinely convinced they have grounds to disagree with you.

Here's the real story, paraphrased, as much as you like to muck it up:
"Everything is messed up because people willfully ignore the Constitution!"
"I disagree. Most people believe that positions they advocate are constitutional. Though they may be wrong due to misunderstanding or poor interpretation, that is not blatant ignorance."
Now, you and I have debated that claim, but now you want to pretend I never made a claim for you and I to have argued. I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna let you weasel out that way and pretend I'm the bad guy here.

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

As for Obama, check his voting record. He voted in favor of the war in Iraq and went along with just about everything Bush put foreward (I'm pretty sure he voted for the patriot act too though I'm not positive) so for him to claim "change" as being his big platform is just laughable. He's no agent of change. He's just same old same old like all before him. Nothing special whatsoever.

He may have his problems, but I thought I'd interject here that he was not a U.S. Senator when the Patriot Act was passed (2001) or when the resolution to declare war on Iraq was passed (2003). I will, however, temper that with the fact that he did vote Yea to the USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization Act of 2005 which extended and/or expanded certain provisions of both the PATRIOT Act and the IRTPA Act of 2004, and has probably voted Yea on spending bills related to the Iraq War.

[DalekSec]

Really?

Why are most Constitutional Scholars scratching their heads at the idea of requiring citizens to buy health insurance? Why the worry over the Patriot Act then?

You DO realize how badly the "Commerce Clause" has been abused to pass all manner of insane legislation don't you?

[qzar9999]

Originally Posted by DalekSec

You still fail to show me just what Lord Obama has managed to do beyond give pretty speeches to empty headed sycophants who think money comes from his arse with the waving of his mystical hands.

See, you can't be shown what he's done beyond that. Because there ISN'T anything else.

You know, Dalek, I'll tell you like I told HOB: You're disputing something with (1) a woman (2) who's completely convinced of her own correctness. I'd have thought you already knew that's a complete waste of time. It took me less than 2 years of marriage to work that one out...

[kia252]

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

But there isn't grey here because the definition of a capitalist free market is very specific. If it doesn't fit the definition, then it doesn't get to claim that status.

I don't think that's his point. He contends that there can be systems that are not 100% laissez-faire capitalism and not 100% socialism, but rather take aspects from both.

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

Besides, socialism didn't happen overnight. It started with little sprinklings here and there. Do I really have to remind everyone that socialism resulted in shortages, riots and even war?

Is this unique to socialism and entirely consequent of socialism? I do not believe so on either count. Capitalism can easily be blamed for these same results in just as many cases, so you might want to have a better ground to deny socialism in favor of capitalism.

Originally Posted by Lord T Hawkeye

Socialism had it's chance and failed. Get over it folks.

I'm not so sure about this. Social democracies still seem to be doing just fine. The problem with chucking around the word "socialist" anymore seems that it is too often an appeal to McCarthyan paranoia by tying it intimately with Soviet Russia without any appreciation for divergences in socialist theory. To that extent, the use of it more and more seems to reflect Godwin's Law.

Dalek, I'm a bit confused with your problem with Al Gore. While I understand questioning him, what does he have to gain, personally, from his environmentalist efforts? Isn't he basically set for life financially after his senatorial and vice-presidential tenure and the speaking engagements he can get as a result? Hasn't money he's earned from, namely, An Inconvenient Truth been given to fund environmentally-minded foundations? Basically, I believe you're suggesting that there is some ulterior motive and I would like to understand what it is and why you believe it exists.

[kia252]

Originally Posted by DalekSec

Really?

Why are most Constitutional Scholars scratching their heads at the idea of requiring citizens to buy health insurance? Why the worry over the Patriot Act then?

You DO realize how badly the "Commerce Clause" has been abused to pass all manner of insane legislation don't you?

I heard the individual insurance mandate come up as an idea. Is that in the current draft? If so, that is a horrible idea and hopefully proponents can be convinced that such a thing does not have a constitutional basis. However, I don't think it reflects systematic disregard.

What do you mean why worry over the Patriot Act?

Abused or interpreted more broadly? Let's also not forget that not all bad/insane laws are unconstitutional.

[DalekSec]

Originally Posted by qzar9999

See, you can't be shown what he's done beyond that. Because there ISN'T anything else.

You know, Dalek, I'll tell you like I told HOB: You're disputing something with (1) a woman (2) who's completely convinced of her own correctness. I'd have thought you already knew that's a complete waste of time. It took me less than 2 years of marriage to work that one out...

Now now please. While I may call R.B. on things from time to time I do like her and respect her. If I did not, I would not take the time to answer her posts.

We can be polite and respectful even when others have an off night after what she described as a terrible day.

Personally I consider her very intelligent and devoted to her chosen faith and I can not see disregarding her feelings over a disagreement on the Net.

I happen to like you all too much to hold grudges or get angry with any of you.

Originally Posted by kia252

I heard the individual insurance mandate come up as an idea. Is that in the current draft? If so, that is a horrible idea and hopefully proponents can be convinced that such a thing does not have a constitutional basis. However, I don't think it reflects systematic disregard.

What do you mean why worry over the Patriot Act?

Abused or interpreted more broadly? Let's also not forget that not all bad/insane laws are unconstitutional.

Yep. It is in MANY of the BILLS being crammed together to form the final House and Senate versions. THANKFULLY, the Obama Presidency pretty much ended tonight with the drubbings in VA, NJ and very possibly NY. As it stands, the Senate shelved the mess as a whole until Dec. and it looks pretty well dead for good now. Praise be the fickle nature of the American voters.

[qzar9999]

Dalek, I didn't say anything about Rachel specifically--I said "a woman." If you can find *ANY* woman who, heretofore completely convinced she's correct, can be persuaded otherwise... Well, you're not on this planet. ^_^

[DalekSec]

I stand corrected and I do tend to see the best in folks.

I remain, however, a misanthrope. *snickering*

[qzar9999]

"I see the best in folks." "I remain a misanthrope."

I C WUT U DID THAR.

There's something insidiously disturbing about combining those two statements. Possibly it's because I see your point...