Cautionary message about Amazon Eve

[Rachel Bronwyn]

This isn't a matter of deception whatsoever. Eve is presenting herself as a woman because that's exactly what she is. The minor fact she's biologically male will never come into play, whether you buy her products of not. She isn't going to whip out her dick, as she hasn't got one.

It's the folks who are bothered by the fact she once had male genitals or that she has a Y chromosome that need to get over themselves. If those are the sorts of things that matter to someone, I really have no time for them. The only people who have any business knowing a detail as unimportant and personal as her biological sex are the people she engages in relationships with. It's not her job to pander to the general public's homophobia though.

If her being "dishonest" about her biological sex was somehow hurting customers, I too would be rallying for her to identify as a biological male. It's not though. People are allowing their homophobia to override the situation. That's not her problem. It's theirs. If you're attracted to her physically and you think she's a lovely person, embrace the fact you're attracted to someone who used to have male genitals. If a Y chromosome can override all those legitimate feelings, well, that's shallow as hell.

Originally Posted by Sour Oblivion

Surgery and hormone treatments do not change a person's gender. That "Y" chromosome does not magically change to "X".

Good thing gender has nothing to do with biology, eh? Sex is defined by chromosomes. Gender is another issue entirely and is a matter of psychology.

So because this person is still genetically male, I refer to him as "he". I'm simply speaking the truth. A man who tries to make himself appear as feminine as possible through surgery, hormone treatments, make-up, women's clothing, etc. is still a man.

No, they're a biological male whose gender is female. Pronouns refer to gender, not sex. By refering to someone whose gender does not correlate to the socially appropriate sex as the gender that typically is associated with their biology, you give their biology precident of their mind and reinforce the harmful belief gender is defined by biology. It's shallow.

[OhZone]

I'm not sure I agree, Rachel. I am not intolerant of tgd people or anything. Nor afraid. Nor prejudiced. I hate everyone equally. lulz. Actually, I only hate my boss and certain politicians. Anyways, I think you are using gender as one's mental gender or brain's gender. That's only part of the question. I don't know. I really have mixed feelings about this. If I found out a girl I had made love to was originally a guy I'm not sure how I would take it. As for fapping to a female who used to be a guy, I think I would feel a little cheated, especially if I had paid for it. I don't hate Eve or wish ill upon her. I just have mixed feelings on this topic. Definitely.

I do love TG fantasies. I am a heterosexual but not macho. I am only attracted to women. But I do love TG fantasies and process. But, in RL? Very differnt.

[bacattack]

Originally Posted by OhZone

I do love TG fantasies. I am a heterosexual but not macho. I am only attracted to women. But I do love TG fantasies and process. But, in RL? Very differnt.

That's how I generally feel to. I wish Eve would be honest, but then again she would likely lose a good portion of her business if she did so.

I personally wouldn't pay for any kind of session (I'll take my sex the old-fashioned way, by being in love with a girl), but I understand why she would be misleading, but I also understand why people aren't happy about it.

At the same time, if you are attracted to her, even after knowing full well she has a Y chromosome . . .

You have every right to feel that way. She really made sure she turned out hot.

[LK]

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

I'm not one to try and pour fuel on the fire...however....

No worries. One must have a thick skin to discuss sensitive material!

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

Your comment above really doesn't do the rest of your comment justice. To my reading, it totally dispels your assertion that you are not a bigot. (and I'm not accusing you of it, just that your wording doesn't support it)

It sounds like you're actually saying you don't _want_ to be attracted to a woman who used to be a man? Feelings Genuine? It sounds like you mean you want to sure the target of your feelings are 'genuine' rather than the feelings themselves.

I hate being lied to. I hate it. Telling me you're a woman places in my mind a different history than what I have come to expect from other women.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

If you met someone in a bar and found them attractive and wanted to talk to them, would you expect the first thing out of their mouth to be "Before we continue, actually I'm a trans-woman?"

No, but if you're wanting to get into specifics, reactions will vary based upon the scenario. A woman who was once a man in a bar seeking men is likely also taking advantage of alcohol, the setting, and many other factors to hide the fact she's transgendered. She doesn't want to be rejected or discriminated, yes, but in order to do that, she has to hide who she really is. It's a deception much the same way make-up, heels, etc. are used to hide a person's true appearance, but on a much, much deeper level.

It might not be important at the time, but the consequences of that truth coming out later could be something out of a romance novel to a police report on a hate crime depending on who the patsy was that hooked up with her. The point is: what will happen can vary and the possibility for something extremely negative exists because of how she represented herself and what she actually was.

I view Eve putting it out there that she's a mistress just like any other and is giving sessions to be a deception I don't support. Actually, it really sucked to find out she was doing "sessions" after she achieved popularity through Zoo and that she was touring the country before it came out she was a dude once. But that's just me, and there's no harm in that.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

This goes into a much greater area than the classic 'It's a trap' that gets bandied about so much.

Trans individuals almost always suffer a great deal of rejection and discrimination simply by being who they are....when they finally are able to achieve a measure of peace with themselves and are able to be who they truly are, should we have the right to demand they tell us their history just so we can feel better/safer/more secure about our sexuality...and in doing so, extending that rejection and discrimination?

If they get upset by being rejected because someone finds out who they really are, then they need to grow a thicker skin. It also depends on the level of rejection, which is something key that needs to be specified in this discussion. There's a major difference between rejecting with hate and rejecting with indifference.

Discrimination... that's a sad condition of the human state, and one I'm not immune to. But unless it affects me personally, I'm pretty open-minded. You can do WHATEVER you want, as long as it doesn't impact whatever I want to do, and vice versa! And if we are acceptive / tolerant / whatever keyword of the day is that's right, then things can actually be peachy and we can live in peace.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

I understand why some people react the way they do....worrying that by being attracted to someone whose genetics may have the same chromosome pattern as they themselves have....that this somehow makes them gay...

Not calling transgendered people this, but let me drive a point home here: dress up a piece of shit well enough and it can look delicious. Does that mean you will eventually learn to enjoy eating shit? It's an extreme example, and I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Apperances are deceiving, and people do this all the time to hide the truth and manipulate you into thinking the way they want you to.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

And yet, with the numerous murders and maiming of those individuals who are open about their past... are we surprised when those same individuals want to keep their past secret and present as the person they are now?

No. I'm not surprised. But they shouldn't be surprised when the truth does come out. People suck. That's why there are murders and maimings.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

It's a very convoluted issue....and antagonistic postings don't help anyone....no matter how passionate we may be about an issue. While I support 100% HOB's personal journey and the difficulty she faces, I do not support the way in which she lashed out....no matter how understandable it might be under the circumstances.

I actually didn't know HOB was transgendered, and it didn't really matter. What mattered was the nature of his/her post.

Originally Posted by Jecilyn

Likewise, the person who began this thread has a right to his/her opinion, but not to avoid the repercussions (read: responses) of voicing that opinion....loudly, and to people who make up the demographic he/she is denigrating.

Mmm. Again, if you have to use something like Nigger to make a point, you aren't making your point. Be like you and Rachel; intelligent, not reaction-based. Keith Olbermann didn't stand out with his Special Comments because he was ranting and raving at the television. He was eloquent, insightful, and most importantly, selective of when he brought about these segments to provide the most effectiveness (he fought his producers' desires to have these segments more often due to the attention and ratings they got from it).

[LK]

Originally Posted by Rachel Bronwyn

Good thing gender has nothing to do with biology, eh? Sex is defined by chromosomes. Gender is another issue entirely and is a matter of psychology.

I didn't want to touch up on every aspect of your well-written post, but I did want to comment on this one bit: asking people to make that distinction is asking too much of people. That's the first time I've heard someone put it that way. Is it right? Probably, yeah. Do people care? Leaning towards no, except to those who want to profess at the ignorance and prejudice of others.

I don't look at a person and separate gender and sex into two different considerations. It's a lot of work!

[LOD]

Lore I understand completely with what your feelings about the subject are, and for the most part I agree with you. I seen Her post and I agree that the language was harsh but I also agreed 100% with what that post said.

Also I still highly doubt the person he linked to is Amazon Eve...

[Clickme]

I agree with Jecilyn and Rachel in that someone's gender is not set by their Chromosomes.

And before I continue, this post is NOT directed at any one person, but is simply me saying my piece. I wish to apologize upfront if I offend anyone, but I do not apologize for my views. Oh, and there WILL be rambling. Now, with that out of the way...

People need to learn that the way they respond to someone has nothing to do with the person they are responding to. Just because someone says something, or does something, does NOT mean you have to respond any way or another.

If you are attracted to someone, and find out they are not who or what you thought they are, then that's all on you. People have a right to live their lives however they want, calling themselves whatever they want. If you find yourself "duped" by you own feelings, then that's something you have to look at. However, most people find that blaming the other person is the easier thing to do. No one likes looking at themselves.

And just because someone says something horrible nad discriminatory, it does not mean someone can haul off and react without someone else getting pissed. People need to know that one's actions have consequences, some unseen, and others jsut ignored.

I will say that in this particular case, no one was right. This whole thing was handled horribly, save the fact that Lore has every right to ban anyone he wishes for whatever reason. And actually I think it shows very well on Lore's character that the ban was only a temp-ban when he could have easily perma-banned Persephone. It shows that Lore is not [insert some generic over the top name here].

Like I said, this whole thing went from one bad post to another and ended up becoming a huge sink-hole in hte forum. Did Sour have a valid post, yes. Did Persephone have a valid reason to be upset, yes. Did either one handle it well, no.

So yes, I'm not saying this post has any point other than to throw my voice out there, but yeah, back to my other point... People need to start taking their own views and recognizable their own feelings as a product of who THEY are, and no one else.

As for Persephone... I really will miss her while she's banned, but I look forward to her return. I felt like she was a very intelligent person with good points and (despite recent outburst), the ability to discuss a topic without resorting to lower forms of forum trolling. I had a lot of fun conversing with her.

[resiz3d]

dang, I missed a whole lotta drama while out sick.

The 2nd link didnt work for me so I couldn't see "the proof" but from the photos and videos I've seen I'm not so certain Eve is TG. Her face doesn't look very "mannish" to me. She has some strong features but they're the same as you see develop in many very tall people due to hormones. (jaw, cheeks)

Her ribcage and her stomach muscles look very feminine along with nicely curved legs and slender arms. I think the internet has some obsession with trying to "out" ppl as being transgendered (like the Lady Gaga rumors flying around. she aint, btw)

If all this is a lie I can see why people would be upset. But at the same time - she's selling fantasy and fantasies are always lies. Just like any stripper feigning interest in you but can't stand you, any phone sex operator who's 400+lbs with horrible acne or may also be male. Unless actual sex is involved I don't see too much harm in it. Just continue believing she's who she claims to be and relax in blissful ignorance.

[Hooded_Miracle]

Goddammit why is this being discussed.

We're on a forum dedicated to fetishes, some so outright bizarre that they are barely comprehensible, and we're trifling with whether someone is male or female or derp de der.

I thought the rule was that if ya don't like, ya don't comment, right? The only exceptions are if something is so horribly bad that there is no hope for redemption, right?

Sure, this is a moral conundrum, but that's what F&BS is for, right?

[The Warlock]

Originally Posted by Lorekeep

I'm being more open minded about it than anyone who says we should accept Eve as a woman.

Dude, hear me: you're really, really not.

You're a friend, so I'm only going to say one more thing on this: your surgery to makeup and heels comparison is flawed, as TG people are not trying to hide who they are; they're trying to become who they are.

You've got my email if you want to chat about this more.

The Warlock

[LK]

Got me there!

[100Proof]

This is an interesting discussion. Leave it to a "porn" forum to actually be able to have a (mostly) intelligent and rational discussion about such a delicate subject.

Gotta say I'm with Lore on this one. Like him, I hold absolutely no ill will towards anyone based on their sexual preference, gender identity, or taste in clothing. I may not always understand it, but if it makes you happy and you're not hurting anyone, follow your bliss.

That said, deceit is deceit. You can argue semantics until you're blue in the face, but you're still committing a lie of omission if you're TG and don't make that perfectly clear when you're advertising yourself as an object of sexual desire to and <bells and sirens to denote importance> making money off of the dirty thoughts of heterosexual men.

Just like it's not homosexual for a straight man to be attracted to a TG female, it is not always homophobia to not be attracted to a TG female. For many, it's a matter of personal preference. You need to be able to separate disinterest from disgust, fear and/or hatred.

The only remotely close analogy I can make is breast implants. I don't like breast implants. It's a personal thing. If I see a woman with a fantastic rack that looks natural and later find out that she has really well-done and unobvious implants, I will be impressed at the quality, but I will be incredibly disappointed and the attraction will be gone. Does she still have a fantastic rack? Absolutely. But my appreciation for and sexual attraction to that beauty is severely lessened. Is it my hangup? Yes. But if I were paying for a video/photo album/website subscription/etc, it is my right as a consumer to get what I want for what I'm paying for. You can say "but it's all about the fantasy!", but it's MY fantasy. I determine the parameters of my fantasy and I make my purchases accordingly.