Supreme Court to decide hte future of Video Games

[FullMetalX]

Originally Posted by Drachen

What retailers stock AO games? When a game gets retroactively re-rated as AO (like GTA:SA) it gets yanked from store shelves.

I think what Click is trying to say, and I have a very good idea of what that is since the two of us talked about it a lot, is that, like the fact that AO games aren't sold in stores, it's possible that, should the law pass, retailers will stop selling games that the government deems overly violent.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Drachen

If a parent does actually look at the recommendations, they are still depending on the ESRB to decide whether a game gets T, M or E. If a parent tells their child that they can't play any M games, that decision is based on what the ESRB determines is appropriate for an M rating, so the parent is still ceding the decision to the ratings board.

Also, that's actually the point of a rating system. To determine whether or not the game is appropriate or not. Unfortunately, we know parent's aren't going to do the research. Therefore, there's a system in place that rates game and gives information about the game's content. Otherwise, the only way to know would be to buy it and watch their kids play it, or play it themselves, which is not a well known practice. They're ceding the decision, yes. But they're still deciding what's appropriate or not based on the information they're given.

[Drachen]

Originally Posted by FullMetalX

Point of clarification...some of the highest selling games are actually M-Rated games so the reduced market point is actually moot when it comes to video games.

Point taken, but here's a counter-point.

I come from a music background and a Parental Advisory sticker definitely does affect sales, so much so that multiple versions are produced and printed. For example, there was a compilation CD with a Coop devil girl on the cover and a song with the word "fuck" in the title. There was the original "dirty" version with the advisory, and devil girl. There was the Wal-Mart version with edited music to hide the curses, the tail, horns and pointed ears were removed from the devil girl cover graphic and there was no Parental Advisory sticker. There was also a version for Target with the edited devil girl, edited song name, but the "dirty" audio master and a parental advisory. It's really the stores that wield so much power over the content.

[Clickme]

If a parent does actually look at the recommendations, they are still depending on the ESRB to decide whether a game gets T, M or E. If a parent tells their child that they can't play any M games, that decision is based on what the ESRB determines is appropriate for an M rating, so the parent is still ceding the decision to the ratings board.

Again, my point is that the only reason for a parent being displeased with teh game they buy their child, is that they Did not Do the Research... adn to say that without a Trope-name, I mean that Ignorant parents should not put all the blame on game studios. Parents saying they want government mandated rating enforcement are jsut lazy. Parental controls on consoles? 5 minute setup. Checking hte rating on the back of hte box at the store? 12 seconds, maaaaybe 20 is you read slow. And like I said before, there are descriptors for WHY games are rated as such. from Comic Mischief all teh way up to Blood adn Gore, there is a label for EVERYTHING

Bottom line, Irresponsible or lazy parents should blame themselves, not the companies. And with all the information jsut on the sticker, there is no excuse for rating ignorance.

[Drachen]

Originally Posted by FullMetalX

They're ceding the decision, yes. But they're still deciding what's appropriate or not based on the information they're given.

I think we're just arguing in circles. We both agree that they're not deciding that it's ok that their child plays Batman: Arkham Asylum or Uncharted. They're deciding that it's ok that their child plays Batman: Arkham Asylum or Uncharted 1/2 because the ESRB thinks it's ok. To me, that sounds like the ESRB is the one really making the real content decision. With a bit more blood, I think the games I mentioned could be M.

[FullMetalX]

Originally Posted by Drachen

I think we're just arguing in circles. We both agree that they're not deciding that it's ok that their child plays Batman: Arkham Asylum or Uncharted. They're deciding that it's ok that their child plays Batman: Arkham Asylum or Uncharted 1/2 because the ESRB thinks it's ok. To me, that sounds like the ESRB is the one really making the real content decision. With a bit more blood, I think the games I mentioned could be M.

Well, that's only if you assume all parents are illiterate. Again, there are content descriptions on the back of the package that explain why a game got the rating it did. The ESRB isn't saying "This game is Rated M because we say so." They're providing information for parents to make their own decisions. If parents choose to go by rating only, that's their fault.

[Clickme]

Exactly!

[Drachen]

Originally Posted by Clickme

Parental controls on consoles? 5 minute setup.

Do parents actually do that? Most people I know can't figure it out but their kids can.

Originally Posted by Clickme

Checking hte rating on the back of hte box at the store? 12 seconds, maaaaybe 20 is you read slow. And like I said before, there are descriptors for WHY games are rated as such. from Comic Mischief all teh way up to Blood adn Gore, there is a label for EVERYTHING

I like that about the ESRB rating. When parents make those decisions, they're usually not in the store to take a look. It's usually "my parents won't let me buy a game rated M" not "my parents won't buy me a game that says 'intense violence' on the back". Just for fun, take the following 4 examples I just pulled off my shelf: which are the T and which are the M games?

A) Alcohol Reference, Suggestive Themes, Violence
B) Blood, Strong Language, Violence
C) Blood and Gore, Language, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence
D) Blood, Violence
E) Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language

A and C are T and B, D and E are M. In order the PC versions of: Street Fighter IV, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Oblivion: CE*, Deus Ex 2 and Prototype. In all cases, I think the final rating says more about the game than the list of possible objectionable items.

* Yes, I know Oblivion was re-rated at some point. My copy says "T" on the label.

That's kind of fun, but my point is really this: The parent has no way of knowing the difference between "strong language" (always M) and "language" (apparently T or M) or the difference between "intense violence" (M only) and "violence". Parents are still pretty much at ESRB's mercy as far as auditing content unless they view it themselves.

Oblivion and SC:CT are edge cases. It's arguable that SC could have been T with a little less swearing and Oblivion was obviously at the high end of T. Compare just the laundry list of Oblivion with the one for Prototype and assume they are both M. Oblivion looks worse at a glance. I'd let a 13-year old play Oblivion. I'd be a bit more leery about Prototype.

Originally Posted by Clickme

Bottom line, Irresponsible or lazy parents should blame themselves, not the companies. And with all the information jsut on the sticker, there is no excuse for rating ignorance.

The people that push laws like the CA one don't tend to be parents in general. They tend to be activists and politicians.

[TF-Viewer]

Originally Posted by Drachen

Who's "the right people" and who are "they" that have convinced everyone that it's necessary? What are you talking about?

Um.. duh. How naive are you? Obviously I'm talking about people in the gaming industry donating to the campaigns of politicians who'd push for legislation to due away with the rating system. It's just apparently the gaming industry hasn't become as corrupt as it needs to be to do that yet. Buncha slackers if ya ask me.

Or the secret shadow government that controls everything, they good just slip them a $20 and there'd be no ESRB. But first they'd have to unravel an ancient code in order to read the map that leads to the hidden temple that is the secret base of operations. How do you not know this stuff?

[Drachen]

Originally Posted by TF-Viewer

Or the secret shadow government that controls everything, they good just slip them a $20 and there'd be no ESRB. But first they'd have to unravel an ancient code in order to read the map that leads to the hidden temple that is the secret base of operations. How do you not know this stuff?

My mom didn't let me watch that movie. It was rated R and the game was rated M.

[sodacat]

Originally Posted by FullMetalX

Point of clarification...some of the highest selling games are actually M-Rated games so the reduced market point is actually moot when it comes to video games.

Yeah, some. As in barely any, and one of the top ten is the result of one of the largest marketing campaigns in game history.

Originally Posted by Jumba

Supreme court means feck all in England. So I am rather fine

Haha, you think you're free of the influence of American law. The USA is the largest games market in the world, and if significant censorship in response to a ratings system happens here then you're going to be getting the exact same version of a game that we are. How many games have been less censored in the British Isles than they have in the USA? One?

[Drachen]

Originally Posted by sodacat

How many games have been less censored in the British Isles than they have in the USA? One?

Violence censorship is much more pervasive in Europe. Germans get it worst of all. No Nazis, no human enemies, no blood... In the UK, my favorite anecdote is the censoring of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones. A headbutt had to be removed from the Obi-Wan/Jango Fett fight on the platform in Kamino. I think they still had Jango getting decapitated later in the movie though...

[FullMetalX]

Originally Posted by sodacat

Yeah, some. As in barely any, and one of the top ten is the result of one of the largest marketing campaigns in game history.

I'm talking about individual games, not franchises. Some franchises are new while others have been around for years. And since we're talking about the American system, international sales figures don't matter either. As of earlier this year, the #3 top selling game of all time was Modern Warfare 2.