Skysurfer strike force giantess

[KrabbiPatty]

A rant from an anime fan, other anime fans don't get butthurt I'm one of you:

He's right about the glacial pace of anime though, but I would say it has little to do with the absurd (let's be honest) amount of smut in anime. THAT exists because people like sex and sex sales, no deeper meaning than that. And the "tough girls beat you up" trope is just a way to justify having smut without feminists getting pissy about it...because, for some reason, some people are stupid enough to mistake SEXUALITY for SEXISM. Here's a hit: Dead or Alive is NOT sexist, it's sexy, if it were sexist the two most important and able fighters wouldn't both be beautiful women. Metroid Other M is sexist, and if you've ever played it you know why.

Now, back to my rant: THAT, all of that, has NOTHING to do with why anime plots are so goddamn glacial. It's partly because of poor production values, partly because of the Japanese simply not understanding what "pacing" and "character arcs" are. Because I have come to believe those concepts simply don't EXIST in Japanese storytelling--and have seen no evidence to the contrary.

Basically, first off, production values for anime are LOWER despite the flashy appearance than most western shows. Most western shows tend to use more cells of animation and you know it, because fluidity of movement tends to be quite obvious when compared to the otherwise stiff anime characters, whose movements are extremely rigid and "precise", i.e. overdone. This may have changed, in principle, over the recent years with digital animation techniques but the practical end result has not. As a result it LOOKS flashy and cool...but it takes forever to do anything. Combine this with most anime being tied to some cockamamie manga (anime fan, not manga fan here) and the delays in that--because god forbid the guy who writes the manga just TELLING the anime production crew what is going to happen ahead of time--and you have plots that move quite slow.

But that's not the only or even main reason. ALL OF THAT would be irrelevant, or at least not as obvious a problem, if the Japanese understood pacing and arc structure...which they do not. At all. Even a little.

Take for example the fact that in 99% of anime, characters don't even have or develop arcs, and no, changing their fighting style or motive is not an arc. Christopher Nolan's Batman Trilogy had an arc--it started in one point, evolved to something else, and where it ended might as well have been a separate movie. DIE HARD, as a series, has a character arcs. Twilight, Jesus help us all, Twilight has character arcs.

What was Goku's character arc? Or Shinji Ikari? What was different, in the end, for these guys than when they started. Their personalities, goals, abilities were effectively unchanged--better maybe but not significantly different. The only anime I can think of with an actual character arc is Gunbuster. And that still has the other, huge problem of anime which is the utter lack of pacing.

I genuinely believe the Japanese simply have no idea what pacing IS, like it simply does not exist in Japanese storytelling, and I think I could prove it if given the task but that's not relevant right now. Here's what is: one time I decided to watch One Piece, on an episode (picked at random) where they were introducing some new crewmate or another. The one with the big nose who lies a lot. That guy. In a plot which, in a Western cartoon, would last MAYBE two episodes, possibly just one (and I've seen it done as a sub-plot in some shows) they two AT LEAST three episodes--I gave up when part two ended on a cliffhanger.

All they were doing, I must stress this, is introducing Big Nose Guy. That's it. That is not something that takes a minimum of THREE episodes. That's not a story arc, that's not a saga you can release on video like the Green Ranger miniseries, that's introducing a minor character who--unless I'm seriously misreading the One Piece wiki--has little real impact on the course of the series. But that's the thing, the Japanese do this ALL. THE. TIME. They literally take two or three or, God help us, even four episodes to introduce a minor character or minor plot arc or even just for the dreaded "filler".

One Piece is actually a perfect example of my point. Pacing doesn't exist in this series, and that's not just because it's shonen (or whatever) it's because the Japanese have no idea what pacing IS. Even Gunbuster just barely avoided it, because of the series brevity. One Piece has been going on now for, what, twelve years? And how close are they to finding the treasure? Or anything relevant happening? Again, unless my reading of the wiki is incorrect, the answer is "not close at all". Even soap operas have pacing, have the story eventually reach a conclusion.

But the thing is, in anime, the STORY is not relevant: the PEOPLE are. Animes and manga to a much greater extent focus on individuals, usually the prettiest and most girlish looking boy of the bunch (e.g., Shinji, Raiden, Sasuke etc) and nothing else. As a result, reaching the end of the story is less relevant to them than watching the story unfold around someone very, very pretty. That may offend western anime fans but frankly I think the Japanese would agree.

So that's why anime plots are so glacial: they're secondary aspects of the series, maybe even side-stories, to following the main character around and watching him do random things. In other words, a reality show. I find it ironic that the Japanese created reality shows before we did but they always were on the cutting edge.

[ProfessorMishap]

What the hell am I looking at in this thread?

[50percentgrey]

Thank God I got AKIRA on DVD.

[Rei-Lin]

It's not just anime that has different pacing really. The entire Japanese film making industry is the same way. Take a look at Godzilla 2000 for example. If you listen to the commentary you'll find a LOT of things they changed had to do with pacing. For example, in one scene the main characters are looking at an X-ray image of a Godzilla cell. While the camera is focused on the X-ray image, you can hear the characters talking about it at the same time. In the original Japanese version the characters put the X-ray up, the camera stared at it for a few seconds, then the camera panned back to show the characters and THEN they started to talk about it. This happened in several places throughout the film, so the Japanese don't use a lot of overlapping dialogue in their films, which of course will carry over to the anime as well.

And also keep in mind that anime in Japan now isn't like the anime from the 80's or 90's. Since anime has exploded across the world now moreso than it ever had back then, they tend to make simple, character based anime to cater to American audiences. They know that American kids love a billion characters in their shows because that leads to marketing of the 100+ character figures, dolls, puzzles, games, etc. It's hard to find anime like Appleseed or Gunbuster or even Record of Lodoss Wars that focus on a smaller group of characters with a purpose and a goal and aren't there just to stand around for 4 episodes while some other character powers up to defeat the next bad guy in line. That's why Miyazaki films are so amazing to me because at least his films tend to "feel" Japanese, as in, people outside Japan generally miss half of what the film is trying to say. Not always, but that's just one example off the top of my head.

I will say I am glad that I still have two manga ideas that could easily turn into massive anime series and still be really awesome without all the cliche crap that usually worms its way into American tv sets.

[TF-Viewer]

Originally Posted by Silver Spoon

"Animes" is not a word, argh.

Neither is "argh". So shush it.

[Silver Spoon]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/argh

Well, not the way I used it, but it is. So there.

[strangeidiot]

My admittedly exaggerated response was because TF-Viewer was applauding the ongoing "pervification" of anime, and my point was that it's instead made a growing subset of anime very very awful, and is creeping into mainstream anime as well. I don't think all anime is awful (just a lot), though granted I haven't watched a lot for about a decade.

And the "tough girls beat you up" trope is just a way to justify having smut without feminists getting pissy about it...because, for some reason, some people are stupid enough to mistake SEXUALITY for SEXISM. Here's a hit: Dead or Alive is NOT sexist, it's sexy, if it were sexist the two most important and able fighters wouldn't both be beautiful women. Metroid Other M is sexist, and if you've ever played it you know why.

Let me rephrase this for you: the "tough girls beat you up" trope is a flimsy cover-up for sexism that addresses none of the core problems of female representation and enrages feminists because it entirely misses the point. Dead or Alive is sexist because it demands that its leading ladies not only be deadly fighters, but also that they look sexy and flop their breasts around while doing it. Thus, they're actually to do more than the male characters, who may have sex appeal, but generally don't have to worry about flashing/hiding their panties during a fight to attain it.

Sexuality is an interplay between people. It takes two (or more). There is no sexuality on screen in Dead or Alive, just a bunch of voyeurism. Any sexual desire on part of the female characters is totally mutable and controlled by the male desire of the player, as Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball makes painfully clear.

Now, back to my rant: THAT, all of that, has NOTHING to do with why anime plots are so goddamn glacial. It's partly because of poor production values, partly because of the Japanese simply not understanding what "pacing" and "character arcs" are. Because I have come to believe those concepts simply don't EXIST in Japanese storytelling--and have seen no evidence to the contrary.

This is called cultural essentialism, where a culture is seen to be so completely different from others that it must function in completely different ways. It's also total bullshit, and Japan is a good case in point. In one generation, Japan went from a militarily controlled Imperial power set on controlling its citizens and totally subverting Asia to a democratic society without a standing army. And while that change was not without difficulty (or old remnants of its past still today), if Japan's culture was truly essentially different, then it would have been impossible.

Similarly, saying that the Japanese don't understand pacing and narrative is pretty damn near racist--and implying, no stating, that the Japanese haven't even developed these things just plain is.

Anime, at least the long running series like Bleach, Naruto, DBZ, are essentially day-time soaps. I'd agree with Krabbi that plot is not the main function of these series (but again disagree strongly and slowly walk away from the notion that it's because the Japanese can't do plot), but rather it's an excuse to get a bunch of archetypes to bounce off each other and create sparks. The appeal is the fun of a character or certain setup, but not because it's anything new. That's why shows keep going on, adding filler upon filler, stretching dialogue scenes out and out, because at some point peoples are just watching for this certain combination of characters, and that's going to be milked as long as it can. People make fun of soaps because characters keep breaking up/getting back together/deciding to kill their children, but as over-the-top as this all seems, they're all established tropes that repeat over and over, but in slightly fun new ways. People get comfort from that. My point is that this is not just in Japan, it exists everywhere, anime just happens to be a medium where its cheap enough to keep going interminably. Similarly Family Guy, and even the Simpsons are kept going now more because of people's affinity for Quahog or Springfield and their residents than because they're consistently breaking new ground in humor.

Godzilla films (certainly not representative of the whole film industry of Japan, despite their popularity) follow a certain pattern, in that their appeal for a lot of people is hitting a series of tropes, including slow pacing. Seriously, there are so many pointless overextended shots in Godzilla films, even going back to the often great original, which spends a lot of time showing off the JSDF before they get destroyed.

Again, not every anime series is like this. I'm totally perplexed by the idea that NGE has no character arc for Shinji. (The whole show is Shinji getting over depression.) Cowboy Bebop as a series, and episodically, is wonderfully paced. Japanese cinema, especially before 1970 when the industry tanked, is far more diverse than people understand, and there are plenty of well-plotted expertly paced films out there.

Oh yeah, and just to be kind of on topic. I remember this show as one of those "Uhh... I think I like weird things" moments as a kid. I think this ep was randomly the first I saw of it, and I kept watching it in hopes of more despite how terrible it was. God, those character designs.

[Quantum Heart]

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